Ken Kawata

First name is Ken, K-E-N. No middle name. Last name is K-A-W-A-T-A. T as in Texas. Born in 26 April 1937 in a little town in southern Japan called Miyazaki, M-I-Y-A-Z-A-K-I. Japan.

And who were your parents, and what did they do?

Dad’s name was spelled C-H-I-Z-U-O. Chizuo. A physician. Mother’s name was C-H-I-Y-O-K-O, Chiyoko. A housewife.

And could you tell us a little about your childhood, growing up?

Were animals part of your life?

It was unfortunate that the family had a history of dysfunctional family syndrome, and wildlife was sort of an escape, or a therapy to read about, and to look at. So if I grew up in an ordinary family, I may not have gotten into zoo business.

As you were growing up, did you see zoos growing up?

What was the impression you got?

The town I grew up didn’t have a zoo. So it was in my dream, (coughs) excuse me, writing fan mail to the zoo director in Tokyo so forth and so forth. As a little child, I remember on the family vacation going to the next prefect, the next city, looking at zoo animals, and I was absolutely fascinated. I was probably four or five.

And did you then ultimately as a child get to Tokyo to see the zoo?

I was already in my early 20s when I got to see Tokyo, and looked up at my childhood hero, Dr. T-A-D-A-M-I-C-H-I. Tadamichi Koga. Koga is easier to pronounce. K-O-G-A. It was as if a little farm boy looking up at John Wayne.

And he was the director of the?

Ueno Zoo. U-E-N-O. Ueno Zoo, right.

And what type of schooling did you have?

Ordinary elementary school, junior high, high school, and agricultural college in town. And that was, graduating in 1961, 15 years later, back in Oklahoma, I went to one of the regional universities, Northeastern Oklahoma State, for my master’s degree. And you mentioned a person at the zoo that you looked up to.

In school, did you have any teachers that had an effect on your life within the zoo world?

As far as zoo world, no. As far as biology, a professor who happened to be applied entomologist. Spelled N-A-K-A-J-I-M-A. Dr. Nakajima. Was the one who really taught me basics in biology.

So what was your first zoo job?

It was an intern?

Internship, yes.

How did you get it?

Where did you go?

I wrote to my childhood hero, and said just come on up. So July 1959, I went to Tokyo for the first time. Internship, you can put it in the resume, but basically it’s shadowing a zookeeper everyday, and also in 1960, I thought was such a glorious job, seriously, to shovel elephant manure in hot, humid day at the bottom of the pit, shoveling. And to me, it was glorious. A dream come true.

And so you just applied for this, and they said okay?

Okay, come on up. Because it’s an unpaid position. We’ll furnish a room, probably because I knew the director by correspondence for so many years.

What kind of zoo did you find when you got there?

Generalized large collection, from herbs, to birds, to mammals, all the basic crowd-pleasers were there. Elephants, great apes, large cats, bears. So, it was almost heavenly.

Did you think of this internship as a next step to getting into a paying job at the zoo?

Was that in your mind?

I wanted to, yes. Although it didn’t work that way, because right after graduation, went to Tokyo, and contracted tuberculosis. So ended up for two years in a sanatorium in the outskirts of Tokyo, and by the time I finally got out, having tuberculosis is almost like an ex-con in Japan at that time. It’s a social issue. (coughs) Excuse me. So, and also Dr. Koga had retired, so it was an unfortunate time. I worked for a support organization, at that time known as Tokyo’s Zoological Park Society and I edited a monthly journal, Animals and Zoos, in Japanese, of course.

How did you get the job with the Zoo Society?

It was easy to, at that time, it was easy to get into Tokyo’s Zoological Society, because it was a support organization, not the operator of the zoo. Now it is, but not that time.

While you were working for the Zoo Society, were you learning anything about the zoo profession, and were there any lessons there that you took away from this job?

Watched zoo operation from the outside, unfortunately. Just learning what to do, and what not to do, and so forth. And I read quite a bit.

You had that job, and ultimately though, you left that job?

And is that when you traveled to the United States?

Mm-hmm.

Can you tell us the genesis, how did you go from working for the Zoo Society in Tokyo to coming to the United States?

How did that occur?

At that time, the culture of Japan, which may seem so fascinating to so many people, really got to me. It’s a highly hierarchical culture. You are not an individual person. You are not Ken. It’s just a little part of the whole system. So it just got to me. Three persons, three men really, were beneficial.

Number one was Marvin Jones who wrote to something like 54 zoo directors and said hey, this guy’s coming to the US, would you help him out?

Another person who imported me, quote unquote, imported me, a reptile dealer, whose name was Ray Folsom. And on the west coast in California. And I was a house guest, lived in his guest room for a few months. It was the summer of 1969. July 2nd, that’s the day I arrived at the LA International. But you can’t really stay there on a tourist visa. So Ray Folsom, Marvin Jones, and here comes Gary Clarke, who I met at the AAZPA conference, and he invited me. So I took a chance on a tourist visa.

Went to Topeka, Kansas. Which was a very dramatic change. And we went to immigration services. Immigration service says no. You’re not really a person needed in this country. Just go to the labor department.

You go to the labor department, labor department says well what’s the job?

Zookeeper. Uh, no. Just go back to immigration service. Gary Clarke had a brilliant idea of creating a temporary new zoo job title. Zoo management trainee. Which was another keeper title, but then he somehow came up with a scheme. Went to the labor department, labor department, okay look at it. Pass it on to immigration service.

Immigration service said well, labor department okayed it, so you can have a green card. Not a citizenship yet, but a green card, with which you can stay in this country indefinitely. So that’s how it started, January 1970. I arrived in LA 2nd of July 1969, in January 1970, so in a very quick, short time, I was able to live indefinitely in the country. That’s how it started. Then after three years or so, wanted to step up from the keeper position to curatorial position. Went to Indianapolis, and as they say, the rest is history. Well, let me ask you.

You go to Topeka, and you are essentially an animal keeper?

Animal keeper.

What would you say is the difference between the zoo in Tokyo, and the new zoo you came to in Topeka?

It start with the top. In Japan, the zoo directorship is just another municipal department head position. And they’ll put someone with absolutely no idea about biology or zoos. A guy who can’t tell a moose from a mouse into the zoo directorship. Just for two, three years. Another, shouldn’t say idiot, but another idiot comes in, so then the technical part will rely on the middle level management. Well, that is also a non-professional. The zoo professionals at that time, in the 70s in Japan, was barely maintained by keepers to use the slang, shit cleaners.

They kept the fire going. Not anymore. Now it’s a new middle class is emerging there. But zoo directors are mostly still non-professionals.

So Gary Clarke was the director of the Topeka Zoo?

Mm-hmm.

And did he, during your time there, give you insight into the zoo profession?

Yes.

Example?

For example, elephants. How dangerous they are. And how you relate the zoo to the general public. He was a genius public relations guy, and the connection with the radio station, and so forth. So I learned a lot from him.

Did you have an issue with the language?

That’s a different story. In the educational system in Japan, English, or any foreign language, is almost a secret code. And with no relationship to sound or practical everyday conversation. (coughs) Excuse me. So I was rebellious about everything. About family, school, society. Being so rebellious, I went against the teaching of English, like a secret code, and just broke away into conversational. So, (coughs) excuse me.

What’s this with me?

So, no. I had to learn two S’s. Speed and slang. So that was all I needed to add, as far as the conversational English.

Were you able to visit other zoos when you were in Topeka?

Yes. I began to drive around extensively in the Midwest area. Chicago included, of course. And began to visit zoos. There are steps to learn the zoo trade. One is to watch animals extensively. Another one is to visit other zoos, and make a communications channel with other zoo people. Number three is read.

Journals and books. That was before the internet era. So I read books, and I read journals.

Why did you want to move up to a management position?

It’s fine to stay with the animals on daily basis, but eventually, there are things you want to do something you cannot do as a keeper. You have to have some control over the animal collection. Acquiring new animals, or improve animal care. That you have to step up to your supervisory position, or administration position, so that’s what I did.

And what happened that you decided to leave Topeka?

I applied for a curatorship in Indianapolis’ old zoo. And I was accepted. So after three years and three months, I moved to another town in the Midwest. That was Indianapolis.

And when you got to the Indianapolis zoo, what kind of zoo did you find, was it different than Topeka?

It was an old Indianapolis zoo. Not the current one. Not much different with the, a little larger animal collection.

Who were the seniors, who was the director?

Roy Shay. I still stay in touch with him.

At this time, were you forming your philosophy about zoo management?

Mm-hmm.

What kind of thinking were you doing about zoo management?

Despite what the general public thinks, zoo work is people work. Very, very clearly. Of course, you have to have extensive knowledge of animals in captivity and wildlife, and the experience. And yet, if you look at the zookeeper work, the position closest to animals, a keeper doesn’t spend all that much time with animals, because most of the time, a keeper is communicating with other humans, such as coworkers and the public, running around carrying equipment, talking to fellow humans, and then, as you know, you don’t hug and cuddle coming into physical contact with the animals. Basically, oftentimes, you, hate to say, dump food on the floor after cleaning, shut the door, bring animals in. And most of the time, you’re dealing with fellow keepers and the public. So it’s a keeper job, I mean, (chuckles) people job, that most job applicants do not really realize along the public.

And in this new job as the curator, what hurdles did you have to overcome as a manager?

It was insulated well from the external interference, but then you get into potential frictions with other department heads.

So how do you deal with it?

You have to know how to get along with other department heads, and yet somewhat forcefully, you have to push your philosophy. That was sort of internal politics. You have to be nice to the zoo director so that you can get what you want. But then it’s people skills that arrives on the horizon when you take curatorship.

As a new curator, what were your priorities?

What did you want to accomplish first?

You have to talk to keepers to get them do what you want to have. So now you have to talk to them, and respect them as fellow human beings. That, some people can’t do, some people can do. Hard way, I think I learned it the hard way. Now you stayed as the Indianapolis Zoo as curator a short time. Short time.

Why did you decide to leave?

Larger opportunities. Larger collections. Larger zoos, in other words.

And the next zoo you go to is the Tulsa Zoo?

And how did that move to the Tulsa Zoo, and in what position, how did that happen?

At that time, Dave Zukoni was the director then. And there was some problems with news media and so forth. You have to professionalize the zoo somewhat. So I talked to Dave Zukoni, and he said come on over.

And was it a different title you were hired for?

General curator.

And as general curator, what were your new responsibilities at the Tulsa Zoo?

Basically very, very similar to other small medium sized zoos. You stand between the director and the group of keepers who scream at you at times. So you are caught in the middle. Oh by the way, excuse me, one step back. My accomplishment in Indianapolis Zoo was to research parental behavior of the red-tailed hawks in captivity. So that was a worthwhile job I did. Now moving, so that was back in Indianapolis. And the next one was Tulsa, Oklahoma.

What type of zoo was Tulsa as compared to the zoo you had come from, Indianapolis?

Similar, generalized collection with elephants to great apes to hoofstock to birds, so a little larger collection. Unionized keeper force, which I never had before. And ultimately, you look outside. And one of the accomplishment was to commute to regional university for master’s degree. And it was around that time I gained a US citizenship. So it was a worthwhile time.

And in the job at Tulsa, what new challenges were you confronted with?

As I said, unionized keeper force. You have to really have a rapport with the section heads. Q3 section head. If you cannot get along, and you are not accepted by the section heads, you are sunk. And that’s not at times because of the personality differences. I don’t think I faced any racial issues, as some people would expect. But anyway, the personality difference, that still remains to be such an issue in any workplace, including zoos.

And can you describe your management style?

Mm-hmm.

And you could describe it, but how do you think your staff would describe your style, and over the years as you were seeing different zoos, did it change?

No. Basically, management of people pretty much remains the same, although new waves of those fresh off college campus, now more than half of them are women, and new waves arrive at the zoos, but people management basically stays very similar.

So what kind of manager would you describe yourself as?

At least I was very fair. And if you do the job, I may leave you alone. But if you can’t do the job, worse yet, if you don’t want to do the job, come to my office. Close the door. And have a talk. And just tell them you listen to me. If you interrupt me, it’s a sign of, it’s a bad sign, insubordination. I’ll jot it down.

You listen to me and prove yourself, or else. There’s the door. If you have any questions, fine. Otherwise, just get the heck out.

How important was professional growth for your staff?

With the staff?

Yeah. At times, it’s difficult because they think that they know what they’re doing, but ultimately, you have a keeper class bringing speakers, including the zoo director, and so on, encourage them to, cannot force them to, but read books. At that time, it was before the internet, so just read books.

Have you heard of Hediger?

That sort of thing. Sometime it works, most of the time it doesn’t work. People have independent minds. Now, at the Tulsa Zoo, as you mentioned, you got your citizenship. You got a master’s degree.

What prompted you to leave the Tulsa Zoo?

Larger job. Maybe a little more money. But larger collection.

And your next job is at the Milwaukee Zoo?

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

How did that come about, and why did you wanna go to that particular zoo?

It was quite large. At that time, modernization was needed somehow. So here comes a PhD. Gilbert Bose. And then I, as the curator, with a master’s degree. So modernization has begun. And one of the things I really liked was to coordinate research project with a local college. Bring in a professor, and work various project.

After all, a zoo is a collection of live animals, and behavior is what we talked about, so she and I co-wrote research papers, basically on ethology, the behavior. It’s the safest area. You don’t have to do physical manipulation too much to do ethology. So that was worthwhile.

Who was, the director was?

Gilbert Bose.

And who were some of the, you were general curators, so who were some of your staff, senior staff people?

Now I have to, it was long ago. I have to think for a while. Okay.

What were some of the high points during your time at Milwaukee Zoo?

The things I have, as I said, research project, we got some of them published, and have a good rapport with keepers. That was a more relaxed position, but the zoo changed eventually. And I was kicked out. And within a matter of nine month, for the internal problems, three senior staff members had to leave. Rudy Anderkofle was told to, one morning, told to clean up the office, get out in 15 minutes. I was given the chance to just stay for a few more months, just to qualify for pension. Robert Pullman, the director, got finally fed up, walked out. Retired.

So within a matter of nine month or so, three department heads left. I was one of them.

And you then, that was, so you were there from 1981 to 1987?

Mm-hmm.

And then the next zoo that you went to, where was that, and how did you decide that’s the zoo I’d like to work at?

I really didn’t have a choice. Lost a job, and living on unemployment. Steve Graham, then the Detroit Zoo director, kind of rescued me, and I arrived at Detroit. Internally, he was very, very difficult. I was at Belle Isle Zoo in Detroit. It’s sort of a, hate to say dumping ground, but dumping ground of unwanted keepers, and a small animal collection. So I talked to one of those discarded keepers, and said, you were supposed to be a difficult one to work with, and you haven’t given me any headaches.

How come?

What surprised me was he said because you treat me like a human being.

What?

That’s what apparently happened. If you speak up as a keeper, you get kicked out. So I ended up with the rejects, who turned out to be pretty good.

Can you talk about Belle Isle Zoo?

That was part of the Detroit Zoo?

Part of the Detroit Zoo. Very ill-conceived. Animal facilities are just terrible. Very little space for keepers, very little space for night quarters, winter quarters, and it was on the elevated boardwalk. Impossible to walk in winter because of the ice and so on. So it was quite difficult. Difficult years.

Do you feel you were able to make contributions to the collection?

I would hope so, but collection was so limited. No indoor facility, basically hoofstock. So I couldn’t really expand the animal collection. So I did other things, such as working with UIA Seal, or the CBSG, now CPSG. Coordinating with the conservation programs, and also I got into conservation program of the Mexican gray wolf. And that was a worthwhile 10 years. And if I have such a difficult time, I would rather stick around and stay until I qualify for pension, so 10 years. A long 10 years.

So I wanted to have a very nice place to finish off my zoo years, and after 10 years, I was looking. I was very fortunate to find a home the next zoo, final zoo.

And that zoo is, how did it come about that you went to the Staten Island Zoo?

Staten Island Zoo, yes. I talked to Vin Gattullo. G-A-T-T-U-L-L-O. Into hiring me. And he was an educator biologist, unlike so many other zoo directors. So I went there. It was a very nice place, peaceful staff for a change.

Now what kind of zoo was the Staten Island zoo?

What was its makeup, and how did it fit in to the zoos in New York?

A small collection, one building zoo, which was unique at that time. One wing, quote unquote. With mammals, the birds, and herbs. And well-known for the very large rattlesnake collection, built by Kyle Coffield. You must have heard the name many times indeed.

Did they have, they still continue to have his rattlesnake collection, or a portion?

By that time, it was much smaller. About one third of what they used to have. But yes, there still were quite a few species. Dozen, 15. And the reptile wing was a very nice place.

So you mentioned you felt that this would be your last zoo position?

Mm-hmm.

And why would you think that?

I wanted to end the zoo career with an up note instead of down note. It worked.

And when you retired from Staten Island, how many years had you been in the zoo profession?

Let’s see. 34 years or so. Wait, I have to look at my paper. Anyway, 34 years or so. 31 years of which being a curator in several zoos. I didn’t want to get up to the zoo directorship. Too far away from the animal collection, too much politics. That’s where I wanted to stay.

And that’s where I stayed.

What did you mean when you said each species is a surprise?

They’re a puzzle, and you don’t have all the pieces. After so many years, they continue to throw me off altogether.

What did you mean?

Good question. Basically, a zoo job is eight to five, 40 hour week job. And you really, really don’t know what your animal does, animal is. Also, there are so many variations in individual zoo situations and individual animal. For some people, bongo is like a cow. Very easy to manage. Just push them around. Feed them.

If you go to some other zoo, bongo is, oh it’s a nervous wreck. It bumps into a concrete wall, and injured the lip. It’s so different. It’s a puzzle. If you really want to know the animal, just stay up for 24 hours, and watch the animals for 24 hours. You really have an eye opener, how they do, how an animal does between five p.m. until eight a.m. the following day. I did. Once I did.

And how they move around is suddenly so lively after you go home. I wrote a paper on that, yeah right. Echidna, I think it was. Yeah.

Now, during your time, which we’ll talk about later, but during your time at these various zoos, you are writing papers and making sure people know what you’re doing, is that correct?

Mm-hmm.

How did you start thinking about that aspect?

Writing was something I did, I still do, very comfortably. Putting down your thoughts, observations, on paper. First, I began to write by observing animals directly. That was the first step. Then taking a little overview, you move onto management of animals, and management of zoos, not based on individual species. The third step, where I am now, is to look at the history of zoos. After all, if you don’t know where you have been, you really don’t have a firm grip on where you are along how to look into tomorrow. So yesterday, today, tomorrow.

It was a natural succession for me to look at yesterday from today’s viewpoint, so my writing shifted from observing animal to overall management of the animal collection now into looking into history. So three steps. That’s where I am. You have worked with many zoo directors.

Can you comment on the influence each director had on the zoo, or the zoo profession?

Each zoo?

Roy Shay. Gave me freehand, pretty much. Oh, one step back. Topeka. A zookeeper. Gary Clarke was a master PR person, but also had the real firm grasp on the public and animals and animal care person, because of his experience. So he pretty much laid out how an American zoo functions in terms of public and animal collection. So then to Roy Shay, who gave me pretty much a freehand.

(coughs) That’s a time I did some research, and so on.

What was the next?

Dave Zukoni. Great guy. We had differences, of course. But he had a wide range of tolerance to my idiosyncrasies. That was great. But Milwaukee was the one I had a problem, when the zoo director divorced his wife, had a new one who began to run the zoo, one step at a time. I spoke up. Didn’t work.

Got kicked out. So the next one was Detroit.

Belle Isle?

Belle Isle, yeah. As I said, not an easy situation to be in. But then, well I’ll stick around for 10 years to qualify for pension.

So that director of the Belle Isle Zoo was the same director as the Detroit Zoo?

Detroit Zoo. Steve Graham, yeah right. He was the one who kind of rescued me when I was unemployed. But eventually, he had to leave. And new one comes in, and so on. But by that time, I was qualified for pension, for comfortable out.

What was the management style of Steve Graham?

He had a unique way of doing things. He gave you some freehand, but he wanted to do it hands-on himself, such as managing a parking lot on his day off, and so on. Unique way, but he eventually had political problems, and had to leave.

And the Staten Island Zoo?

Staten Island Zoo was well insulated from external politics and problems, and inside, there wasn’t much of political problems. I was given pretty much a freehand by Vincent Gattullo, who was, as I said, an educator and a biologist. But he eventually left, and a new one came in, who couldn’t tell a moose from a mouse, sort of. And he went around and around, one day, going around the zoo in a golf cart, so I said, tell you what.

I will choose the day I leave the zoo, so instead of him saying, I said how about December 31st this year, 2005?

Uh, he didn’t expect that. He probably thought I would fight. No, no, no. I was up to here. So that’s the day I’m leaving. He says, fine. His name was John Caltibiano.

How important, you mentioned going around the zoo, in all these zoos that you’ve worked in, how important would you say it was for the curator to make rounds?

What were the advantages?

Or disadvantages?

Advantages outweigh disadvantages. Early in the morning, you walk around the zoo ground. I think I learned it from Dr. Koga, of Ueno Zoo in Tokyo. 6:30 in the morning, he lived in a small house inside the zoo. 6:30 in the morning, the door opens, he comes out with camera, notepads, little pieces of bread, walks around, looks at animals. If necessary, he takes pictures, takes notes, throws the piece of bread, looks at the reaction. Makes the round, goes back to his little house. Eats breakfast.

Nine o’clock, with jacket and tie, he would say good morning, and good morning. And by that time, he had the entire zoo in his hand. So they had animal meetings, at that time, the zoo had emperor penguins. They had a very skilled zookeeper who took care of them. Dr. Koga knew the degrade, the level of molting of each individual emperor penguin. He knew more than the keeper who took care of them, so that’s a role model. So that’s one style of making the round of the zoo. So different from someone in Berlin, for instance.

The zoo director. Berlin Zoo, you’ve probably met him. Eight o’clock in the morning, senior staff gathers, rain or shine, into the lion house, or whatever. And he comes around, claps his hands, and says you, and you, and you, and you make a round with me. And the group starts walking. When he stops, everybody stops. When he talks, everybody listens to him. And I was allowed to, Marvin Jones and Mark Reid and I were allowed to stay with the morning round.

And at one point, he brings in the maintenance guy, looks at the little hole on the sidewalk, and you don’t have to know German language. He’s, ah, ah, ah, ah. So the maintenance head pulls up the notepad. Uh-uh.

What’s this?

Pretty soon, you know why animals are well cared for, well labeled, and not wire sticking out of the animal cage. At that time, Hans Friedrich, the assistant director, was with us, he comes around, and he makes his own round on weekend.

He was saying, he’s now saying, why is such and such animal was not on the exhibit on weekend?

Hmm. That’s another zoo director’s round. And we stayed away from his sight line, even. Then for the first time, he looks at us, that’s Marvin Jones and Mark Reid and my wife and me, said 11:30, come to the zoo restaurant. (laughing) So 11:30, we will go to the zoo restaurant, standing in the corner, jacket and tie, he comes around, we sit down and ate. That was some experience.

So did you make zoo rounds?

Pardon?

Did you make zoo rounds when you were curator?

Yes. Early in the morning. On foot. In Milwaukee, I got spoiled. Maybe I used the golf cart. But basically, as Hediger said, going around in the motor vehicle is not a morning round. You walk. And Bernard, you may have met him.

The new Berlin Zoo director did the same thing. His style was much milder. He wouldn’t stare at people. He didn’t raise his voice, but he did basically the same thing, even in the Tierpark Berlin, in the big place. That’s something that American zoo directors don’t do. And that’s how Berlin Zoo was run from the 19th century.

What traits made you a good curator?

Rapport with employees. And yet, be friendly. But don’t be a friend. Just be friendly. And see how the person operates. And try to get the person do what you want him to do, for the profession, and for the zoo.

And what skill set do you think a zoo curator needs today as compared to when you started?

Because of the technology, nowadays you have to be thoroughly familiar with computers, whatever, the pocket devices, whatever. Now it’s a requirement that a dinosaur like me really is unfamiliar with. That’s a new area that you have to have, on top of the people skills. Thorough knowledge on animals, and so forth. You’ve worked in different sized zoos throughout your career. Uh-huh.

What would you say a small or a medium size municipal zoo can do today to be involved in wildlife conservation nationally, or maybe even internationally?

First off, you have to have some level of professional freedom allowed by the top management, whether the mayor, or the department head, in case of a society run zoo by the societies of top management, you have to have that freedom, without interference, political interference, from the top. That is the number one thing. Then you have to have that dedicated staff, not simply dedication, but skilled, and have the worldview. That’s very, very important nowadays. Without chanting, like the Buddhist monks, chanting scriptures, conservation, conservation, conservation, you really have to know the wild animals, and their requirements. That’s important. Their requirements. Before chanting conservation, conservation, conservation.

That is critical. For instance, you’re walking around a zoo, looking at a gibbon. 10 o’clock in the morning. There is no doubt that the gibbon is very hungry, because in the wild, from sunrise to sundown, probably 60% of their active hours, they’re foraging. In other words, they’re looking for and gaining food, as opposed to a lion, which typically eats once every two and a half days, and they lay down just to save energy during the day, not that they are lazy. Now here comes the zookeeper, who has prescribed sprays, perfume in the lion exhibit, and goes to gibbon exhibit, and so on. But you have to have that knowledge in the wild, that lion eats only once, according to George B. Shaller, Once only two and a half days as opposed to throughout the day, the gibbon is looking and eating food. That understanding you have to have.

But in other words, a zoo animal, the zoo animal collection, is not a separate entity from the in situ populations, but so you have to have some knowledge of what a wild animal, what certain species do in the wild. In other word, you’re looking the books, whatever information you have, and know how animals live, wild population lives, in situ. As opposed to ex situ.

Did I make it pretty clear?

Now, yeah.

Considering the financial resources of small zoos or medium zoos, what should be the focus of the collection?

Should it be regional, or endangered, or non-endangered?

What should a small or medium zoo- Be selective. To pick which species to manage. On international level, regional level, and local level. It’s important that you show the wide variety of animals to the public, but yet, you have to be selective, instead of trying to get all five, six, whatever species of bears in the world, you just pick one or two bear species. Same with other animal groups, too. Instead of trying to get every crane species, every penguin species in the world, be selective. Just pick humble penguin. Just pick several screens, and so on, so on.

Be selective. Now, zoos in many cases today may be afraid to confront animal welfare or animal rights groups that are anti-zoo. Mm-hmm.

Can you give us your thoughts on how to best deal with these groups?

Did you ever have to in your career?

Didn’t have to, luckily. Pretty insulated being middle management. What needs to be done is probably to be honest. And know that you are representing your animals to the public. So animal requirement, space and whatnot, should be clearly spelled out, so to speak, and tell them, oh, that lion has such a small area.

Oh, don’t you know?

They are inactive for 20 to 21 hours a day in the wild?

Do they really need such a large space?

It’s the quality of the space, not the quantity of the space, that a species requires. So you have to be persuasive, but to be persuasive, you have to be, number one, knowledgeable, and you have to be, number two, experienced and comfortable with dealing with hostility. That’s not very easy, especially with the news media people.

If you could devise a training program for curators, what might be included?

Other than the computer skills and so forth, people skills. As I said. And also, the worldview of wildlife. How people, encouragement by humans, have been threatening them, and so on. And which animal species need more help compared with others. And in the process, you may have to consider less popular, less charismatic animals.

Who would care about echidna, for instance?

Or any experience.

What did you do with your master degree?

Mark?

Oh, elephant troupes. Not very charismatic, but important. So, you probably have to look into less charismatic, but, something that requires our help more. I have been told that you are an excellent educational presenter.

Where do you think this came from, and are zoos on the right track with education?

With education?

Hmm. Good question. You represent wild animals, you translate wild animals to the public, so you have to have some level of skills in that aspect, for instance, for public presentation, don’t go over the allotted time. If it’s 20 minutes, you should be able to summarize yourself in 20 minutes. Not many people have learned that, unfortunately. Also, add some humor, in there every three minutes, or five minutes, throw something unexpected. Don’t have to be bad jokes, but throw humor here and there. It can be done.

During your career, what changes have you seen in the zoo field regarding visitor attitudes at the national level, in any of the professional groups?

The general public pretty much stay the same, with all the television programs on wildlife, and so on, their attitude still remains to be biologically illiterate. Oftentimes, emotional aspect takes it over. In that aspect, the general public still the same, with a basket of knowledge, walk into the zoo, expecting (coughs), expecting to be entertained. So, there’s a gap, not just generational gap, but there’s a knowledge gap, perception gap, between you and the public.

So how do you interpret that to the public?

That’s a question. Big question.

What issues would you like to see zoos address in the future, whether it be in the United States, or in Europe?

Worldwide. It’s been emphasized, but keep emphasizing that the human encouragement is threatening wildlife worldwide. And that eventually it will get into, zoos don’t have to get into this too much, but eventually, it is simply that human population has to be managed and controlled. But before that, you have to emphasize how encouragement of humans is threatening wildlife, not just by destruction of wetland, tropical rainforest, and so on, but also by introduced species, the famous story of rabbits in Australia. It’s true. We have European starlings that’s conquered the continent. Those are the things the public doesn’t realize, but they have to know, how Everglades in Florida is now threatened by released pythons, for instance. A good example.

In 2000, when you were within the profession. Uh-huh. Non ACA zoos and private breeders were essentially banned from participating in SSPs, or Species Survival Plans.

Do you think that hurt or helped zoos?

Mistake. It is a mistake, to look down at private owners, or ranchers, and so on, as something inferior, or enemies. They do have expertise. They have animals that we can coordinate with, with a limited space, so in a way, they have to be viewed as colleagues, with the circus people, even.

What would you say are the zoo’s responsibilities to animal welfare, and what does this mean?

Animal welfare is a very popular term nowadays. However, to get to know animal welfare, you really have to know the requirements of each species, and even each individual.

For instance, just to give you an example, how does an animal under your care perceive you?

Are you a threatening, dangerous tyrant?

Or a friend?

Or something, one of the component of environment?

I would say staff, as well the public, are a component, peaceful component, of the environment, as opposed to a friend or enemy. How to be a peaceful component, it’s up to you, the keeper, the curator. It has been said that many newer, younger zoo and aquarium professionals are computer curators with little knowledge of the precepts of Heini Hediger, Lee Crandall, Bill Conway, or knowledge of publications such as the International Zoo Yearbook.

How important for the future of zoos is it to keep this link with the past?

Awareness, in one word. You have to have awareness. History, for many people in zoos, is a lost cause. Past was all bad. Animals were short-lived. Animal collection was maintained by less knowledgeable predecessors. And we stand here today, we are superior. It’s a generational chasm.

That has to be corrected. Awareness is important, but our predecessors, 50 years ago, 100 years ago, did best they can with what they had, just as we do today. We do our best with what we have, knowledge, technology, whatever. So, bringing in the circus, there’s a difference. It’s not a typically American phenomenon. Just look into the circuses, the zoo people kinda look down on circuses. But there is such a thing as circus historical society in this country, that has conferences, and publications.

Have you ever heard of zoo historical society?

No such thing. So that is one area that needs to be looked at seriously. Nowadays, it’s a common practice to hire people fresh off college campus, who might assume that education is now, my education is now over, I have a bachelor’s degree. Bad start. You have to know how little you know.

How do you make them aware of little they know?

That’s a challenge. Big challenge.

To continue on that, you did make a comment about, is it generational chauvinism?

Yes. Which dictates that the current generation is superior to all past generations. Past is all bad, and there is nothing to learn from our predecessors.

Can you expand upon that a little more?

I think we are repeating ourselves, but anyway. Without, let’s give an example of propagation of great apes in captivity. It is common to hear about a gorilla birth in a zoo, no longer it makes a front page story. Maybe front page, a little article at the bottom of the front page. Current generation may not be aware that gorillas came into zoos by volunteering to live in the zoo. Used to be that great apes were captured in a very crude, wasteful way. They would go out. Shoot the adult.

And kidnap, or steal the baby from the dead mother.

In the process of shooting them, how many adult great apes were blown away, including the mother, before stealing one little baby?

And that baby, from one hand to the other, may have died some way, in other words, to make long story short. Before the little baby gorilla arrived at the zoo, how many adults and also baby gorillas had been wasted, you don’t know. After the baby arrives at the zoo, early days, mortality rate was pretty high. It’s well-documented. And only a few of them survived even two years, three years, five years, all along. Not in a group. So it was, truly surprising event, 22nd of December, 1956, I remember correctly. A baby gorilla was born in Columbus, Ohio, named Kolo, who became a good mother, surprisingly, and grandmother, and so on, so on.

That, today’s generation should know, that before the first baby was born, how many hundred had been wasted and killed. Today’s gorillas in captivity all came from that stock of a wasteful, cruel past. You have to realize that. When you talk about that, the relationship of zoos and aquariums with animal dealers has changed dramatically during your career.

What do you see as the cause of this change, and how has the role of individual dealers or companies changed with respect to the development of modern zoos?

Animal dealers are there because there are customers. Supply and demand. If there hadn’t been zoos or circuses, animal dealers were not there. Didn’t even exist. They provided animals for us, so the basis of the exotic animal collection was really built upon the animals sold to us. Earlier zoo people probably just called up a dealer, paid money, got an animal, without asking the personal individual background of the animal, where was it captured, who used to keep him, and so forth. And you just paid the money, and got them. So now, suddenly, well, not suddenly, but anyway, then all of a sudden animals are being, wild animals, are born in captivity, based on those precious little stock, and animal dealers are bad guys.

Don’t be hypocritical. Period. Come to think of it, Hagenbeck family had a tradition of being animal dealers. And zoo people. Now, you’ve written extensively about the evolution of zoo exhibits. What would you say, as you mentioned Hagenbeck.

What would you say have been the high points, based on your research?

High point?

Probably related to wild animal biology, the requirements, and so on. But that was, that came much earlier. That came recently, rather recently. Earlier, the focus was how the exhibit looked like, with material available. You know that gunnite, the fake rock, or artificial rock once conquered the American zoos. Not all animals are cave dwellers, but from elephant to chimpanzees, they were made into cave animals. That changed a little bit. Easier way out, it was.

So it’s been improving, very, very slowly, but improving. The good example, a typical example of excellent exhibit being in the Bronx Zoo, what you call the gorilla forest. That’s a masterpiece. Before reaching to that gorilla area, they have that okapi exhibit. Very well done. But again, knowledge probably came from wildlife biology in the field. And another typical example is the elephant. Highly popular.

Used to be that you have to have an elephant, so you have a single elephant. Buy a little baby from an animal dealer, two three year old. By the time an elephant becomes five, six years old, he she, mostly she, begins to knock down keepers. Oh, call up the animal dealer who buys them, another baby elephant arrives. That was sort of the vicious cycle. Now it’s been changing. Minimum three to be kept. As you know, the adult male elephant will become eventually a big problem.

You have to sell them, or keep them chained up. It’s been changing, fortunately. You mentioned elephants. Zoos are spending many tens of millions of dollars on elephant exhibits. Mm-hmm.

Would this money be better spent going for in situ conservation of elephants?

What are the issues, the problems?

Sounds like what Bill Conway said, but anyway, to an extent, if you keep elephants in captivity, you’re obligated to provide the best care for them. To do that, it’s expensive, but you have to build decent facility to meet their requirement. That money you have to invest. Beyond that, it might come to the point that artificial insemination become more common so that not everybody has to have a male elephant, and the story of moving male elephant, the stud, from one point to the other, it’s been discussed before, but that’s up to the individual zoos to decide.

Why do you think zoos did not implement, speaking of elephants, a major elephant national breeding program?

Lack of coordination. Individual zoos doing their things. Another aspect is also the cost, of course. You’ve traveled extensively through Europe, and the United States.

Are there major differences in philosophies in European zoos and US zoos?

Doesn’t show on the surface. But Europe is where the modern zoo, not ancient zoos, but the modern zoo was born. First one being in Paris, think it was November 1794. Now the core of the professional zoos, in my opinion, is not in North America, but in German speaking countries. In Germany, Switzerland, and Austria, to an extent. That’s where professionalism is. People in the zoo in the US, not just zoos, but everywhere, live in this most dominant and richest country in the world. As a result, they live in a small pocket in this big country, and they don’t turn their eyes to where the modern zoo started, Europe.

So in other words, it’s in a cocoon. Difference is in European zoos, so many countries are sort of packed in a relatively small size. They communicate well, despite the language differences, and so forth, and they have their own zoo community. We have to learn from that. And it is said that very few American zoo people, individually, see more than 50 zoos in their lifetime. I remember clearly one day when I was traveling in Europe, colleague and I stepped into a zoo, he just pulled up a notepad, said oh, this is my 700th zoo. Ha ha. Just as birdwatchers keep the, quote unquote, life list of how many species of bird they see in lifetime.

Some European zoo enthusiasts either zoo people, or non zoo employees, keep their life list. Sometime, 1000. Sometime 1500. Someone said, oh mine is 1500 something something. And they even come up with a solid list of number of zoos in the whole world. That aspect, the global aspect, American zoo people should learn. Europeans may not be richer, as American citizens, however. They come to you, yes to learn, to look at our zoos, but not the other way around.

They are eye openers, really.

Does space continue to be a problem for zoos and aquariums?

Space?

Space.

Physical space?

Yes. It all depends on individual communities, but not really. Another reason is space requirements of zoo animals vary so differently. But in this country, no. It’s not really a big problem. We talked about animal dealers.

How should zoos deal with surplus animals?

That’s a million dollar question. Because ultimately, euthanasia may surface, a hot potato that nobody wants to touch. Surplus animals. That issue can be solved in different ways. Sending them to private individuals, that’s a no-no. The technology advances to the point that you can do artificial insemination, it might come to the point that the sex of the future embryo can be controlled, so technology should be able to help, at the same time, you really have to firmly deal with surplus animals without compromising their individual fate. May not be easy. Easier said than done.

How successful would you say zoos have been in achieving the reintroduction of species back into the wild, and what stories might you relate about that?

In a limited basis, zoos been successful returning into the wild, California condor, one good example. Black footed ferret, another example. So not in a large scale, but in a smaller scale, because of the coordinated breeding program, and also coordinated with wildlife department in local and state and national government, it’s getting there. Small in number, but good start. You said an important and worthwhile task for zoos in conservation education.

Conser- How do we make that happen?

Conservation can be viewed in different ways. One is the policy or political aspect. The other end is educational aspect. The other area is technical aspect. Zoos can contribute in the technical aspect, and educational aspect, possibly the educational aspect is most important, because zoos are the only institutions in an urban society that have live wild animal collections for the public, and everything starts there. How you interpret live wild animals into the general public. Education might be the most important for us, even before propagation of endangered species. That’s my personal view.

What would you say is the most important concept for zoos to understand and implement regarding their relationship to conservation?

With conservation?

I think, Mark, I think we covered that area, just a few minutes ago. Um.

Should all newly constructed exhibits incorporate a conservation conclusion?

Not all of them. Some popular animals we still have to have, which may not be endangered in the wild, but you still have deer, for instance, or so many hoofstock species you have to have to have a general collection. So because of our spreading the word, the public may think every species in the zoo is an endangered species. Not necessarily so. You have to be realistic to know.

When we talk of endangered species, if you’re familiar, the adopt a park concept?

Mm-hmm.

Does it seem like a natural for zoos to assist in the wild?

Why, in your opinion, have zoos not picked up the challenge in more numbers?

Is it financial?

Is it still viable?

It is still viable. Important to have the worldview. Emphasize that to the general public, and within the staff, to help out endangered species in the wild in various ways, and it’s being done slowly, but it’s happening.

Is education doing any good particularly in boosting the image of zoos among the public and the face of anti-zoo groups?

Not quite yet. You have to have the firm stand to represent the zoo, but when it comes to hot topics, such as cetaceans and primates, it often becomes a front page story. You mean the orca, that’s one good example. You have to remember that zoos and aquariums are the ones who change the image of the orca, the killer whales. The history that someone wanted to have stuffed, well, taxidermed orca, and shot the orca, it just couldn’t kill it, so brought them into the bay, and was truly surprised that they are not vicious, dangerous animal, but can be managed easily. You know, the history goes. That’s one of the contributions aquarium made. People might think, oh it’s a magnificent show animals to do the sort of a performance, but it goes beyond that.

And of course, zoos probably help to change the image of the gorilla as a gentle giant. Sure, field researchers did that, but the zoos also helped, I’m pretty sure, that they are not vicious, wild animals, but a gentle giant.

What can be done to make the visitor connection?

The programming more meaningful?

General public has their own limited view of animals. Their view of, quote unquote, animal is nurtured by household companions, nowadays, it’s companion animal, not a pet, but general public’s concept of animals probably nurtured by a household pet, dogs, for instance, or horses. But there’s a great, it’s maybe a start, but we should not view wild animals as an extension of a dog or horse. That’s one aspect you have to tell the public, that there’s a huge variety out there. You listen to the public, and standing in front of an exhibit animal, someone might say, uh my dog is. So on and so on. But no, it’s not an extension of domesticated animals, which has been with humans for thousands and thousands of generations to meet our needs. No.

Wild animals have their own needs that you are not aware, or you may not appreciate. One day, a young woman called me up in the office, and talked about wolves.

She said in a very soft voice, do they really kill?

The predator has to kill other animals to survive. That’s reality. They have to know that.

Cruel?

No. (laughing) You mentioned Gary Clarke, the director of the Topeka Zoo, as very excellent in marketing. Mm-hmm.

Do you have any advice for the new zoo curator about the importance of marketing zoos?

What are the most important aspects of marketing you think about?

Somewhere I heard in a big zoo that curators do have a job. If the public wants to bother to come to the zoo, yeah, they are welcome. That attitude has to have a 180 degree turnaround, that zoos are for the general public, and you are there as an interpreter of wild animals. They are not the extension of your household pets. They’re out there in huge number. They have their own requirements. Now we are taking away their resources, destroying their habitats, and that has to be looked at more seriously, without the public knowing roads are being built. Tropical rainforests are burnt down to have more cattle to feed us.

That reality has to be introduced to the public, not to mention the rhino horns, for instance. It may not be palatable to show a dead rhino, their horns sawed off, blood dripping. It is shocking to children, but even using a small photo, some way have to get in from the back door into the graphic display for the public. That’s my view. Some zoos do that, most zoos don’t.

How can zoos improve their connection with kids and teenagers to heighten their awareness about the natural world?

Natural world?

Mm-hmm. Show them the reality of living in the wild, high infant mortality rate, for instance. The lifespan of wild animals is much, much shorter compared with zoo equivalent. That sort of thing. It’s not a very popular topic, but has to be relayed to the teenagers, that they are very delicate stage of their lives.

What would you want kids to feel when they come to a zoo?

To feel?

That’s where the education department comes in to important spot. How many kids, teenagers, ever touched a snake, for instance, the most feared and misunderstood, and hated animal. And they would be surprised. It doesn’t have to be a fancy big snake, but eastern indigo, or even boa constrictor, they are surprised how clean a snake is, and doesn’t even smell. And it’s such a smooth skin surface. They have to know that. And that’s where those hits, and education department comes into the picture.

Should zoos be involved in doing anything to help governments protect lands for animals?

Yes.

Is it difficult, in your opinion, to work with politicians to try and create laws?

All depends on the individual community, and individual rules, and individual politicians. But they have to be taught, politicians, and the public, have to be told, we’re all in this together, in the shortest term. So have to work together. Difficult as it may be. Secure land for wildlife. Even for snakes.

Could you give us some examples of successful captive propagation and reintroduction?

Mark, I haven’t been up to that too much, but there have been examples, of course. Black footed ferret. California condor, we mentioned. And down to insects. There are two professional zoo associations in the United States.

Is there room for both?

Yup. Because there are so many diverse areas of study, and to view it, so yes. It’s such a vast, zoos offer such a vast field, and depth. So there’s room for two.

As a member of the Zoological Association of America, why do you think there was, and has been, an impasse with the two associations?

Human nature, I’m afraid.

Frictions, you mean, between the two?

Yeah. It’s unfortunately very common. Especially in two associations, focusing on similar range of memberships. That’s the way it goes.

You’ve been in the profession a long time, but if you could go back in time, what, if anything, would you have done differently?

Probably not all that different, although I might have chosen employers more carefully, sometimes we don’t have a choice. But then again, if you make a poor choice, you may find yourself on the street a few years down the road, and living on unemployment compensation. It happens.

What can or should the US zoos and aquariums do to help upgrade developing countries with their zoos?

You really have to know the culture of the country, and also how much resources with limited range they can afford to spend aside for zoos, and priorities are more likely go to keep people survive, so you really have to be considerate in that aspect.

What do you think the value is of the sister zoo programs, and while you were working in the field, did any of the zoos you worked at have sister zoo relationships?

It has its advantage of making real connections on individual institutional basis, yes.

Did any of the zoos you worked in have sister zoo relationships?

No. I never worked in powerhouse zoos, such as Lincoln Park, or Brookfield, or National, or the Bronx, or San Diego, so my range was relatively limited. Small to medium zoos.

Does euthanizing of endangered species, surplus or genetic issues, still pose a political problem for zoos and aquariums?

Yes, indeed. Especially with species with high public profile, mostly. Nobody would care if the last of the species of a rattlesnake you have to euthanize, but when it comes to cute and cuddlies, mammals especially, it would cause a problem, yes. Public relations nightmare, you might say.

Do we need, or do we have, any charismatic or committed heroes to help shift public opinion for conservation?

Example, possibly Jane Goodall or Jack Hanna, or Jacques Cousteau, or David Attenborough?

Do we have any of those people in the zoo world?

We need some. Very definitely, yeah. I can’t think of anyone in the country at the moment, but Sir David Attenborough is a huge presence in the British Isles, yes. And he has such a class.

We mentioned this briefly, but when a zoo spends multi millions of dollars on a gorilla, or elephant, or a tiger exhibit, and critics may say, why is this money not used to help animals in the wild, you say?

I would say you have to have them as an ambassador of the wildlife world to the human world, but to meet their captive requirements, you have to offer them and house them in a facility that meets some standard, so it is a necessary investment for zoos. Yes, it’s very, very in need for in situ populations, but to seed the helpful hand in human world, you have to invest some in captive facilities, and captive care. No doubt about it.

Given your experience, what is your view regarding zoos maintaining elephants and how it should be done correctly?

Is it being done correctly now?

It’s getting that way. You have to have, it’s a highly social animal. You have to have certain number. There’s no justification of having one single elephant in a solitary confinement, just for the sake of boosting up the gate revenue. No, you have to something like minimum three. And then as usual the problem is the adult male, which can become basically unmanageable, most of the time.

Do you think zoos focus, or have to focus, with large animals, such as elephants, space requirements as the public perceives it?

Or as the elephants actually need it?

Do you think there’s a difference between a five acre exhibit, and a 25 acre exhibit for an elephant?

Depends on the size of the zoo. Plan of the zoo. If it’s medium to small, perhaps you do not justify having just one or two or three, or whatever, elephants. Just to bring in more public, yes. But depends on the priority of the zoo, even some small medium zoos may be able to maintain elephants in an acceptable and decent manner, yes. You’ve had experience in Europe, and the United States.

Are there any zoos in the world you particularly admire, why, and where are they?

The old zoo in Berlin, West Berlin, because of the diversity of the species, and the classic facilities still being updated, that would be my favorite zoo, Berlin. Not the Tierpark Berlin. In this country, there are so many good examples. Bronx Zoo still shines, in my mind. And while Marasca was in charge, Cincinnati Zoo went very, very close to that. Can you speak to the differences and maybe the similarities of zoos in Europe, and North America, possibly Asia, but certainly Europe and North America.

What would you say are some of the big differences, or possibly some of the similarities?

Similarities, the level of expertise in maintaining wild animals in captivity, and also service, to the public. Differences, I can’t think of any big differences right at this moment. Although as far as technical expertise, and so forth, North American zoos have a lot to learn from Europe in many ways.

What are some of those ways?

Maintaining close contact with each other, and the conservation organizations. They have in Europe historic establishment. Europe, including the British Isles. Once I was amazed when I stepped into the London Zoological Society’s library. Immense. That’s something we have to keep in mind. I was envious.

Do you think European zoos wonder how North American zoos spend so much money on exhibits?

I really don’t know. Never really asked. They themselves have spent so much money recently.

Now, to what extent do you continue to be active in the zoological park field?

You still are a prolific writer?

That’s what I’m focusing on, is to publish articles in journals, in several professional publications. That’s one way to leave my mark in the field. Print medium.

Do you feel that, talk about print medium, do you feel that younger curatorial curators understand and appreciate and learn from print media?

It should. How much they’re doing it now. I’m really not sure. But a colleague decades ago said still sticks in my mind. If you experience something in breeding rare endangered species, document, write down how it was done, in what environment, what components made success to this breeding. You write down to share with colleagues, and get it published.

What would you say in your time in the zoo field is one of, or your proudest accomplishment?

Good question. Come to think of it, maybe not all that much. Maybe some. Something that you cannot measure in terms of figures is how much you contributed to nurture younger generations. That you cannot scientifically measure. In terms of animal care, and the observations, I have lived some, such as institute duck migration in the midst of Tokyo in a zoo lake during the 60s, and that is one, in a broader prospective. Similar to the red tailed hawk parental behavior, that I did in Indianapolis Zoo, later became my master’s degree thesis, and also published from Germany in 1981.

Are there programs or an exhibit since you’ve written extensively on exhibitry, that you would have implemented during your time in a zoo, but you didn’t, it just didn’t happen?

That’s much more than what I have done, because again, I didn’t really work for the powerhouse, with the control, with some freedom to spend money, and resources on exhibit. How I would have done, well I have to come back to the field as a young man, and start all over. It would be fun. Challenging, but it would be fun.

But is there any program or exhibit that you would like to do, if money was not an object, and you could get the permission to, what would you wanna put together that you think needs to be done?

Exhibit, for what animal?

Basically, still into mammals, I like to do it right in terms of the elephants, with either species, with separate bullpen, well, the male, adult male facility, with a group of females in a large area, let’s say five acres or so. Multi-level elephant exhibit so that elephant can climb up and down the hill at multi level. The visitors can see, (coughing) excuse me. A multi level. That would be very nice, looking up at them, down at them, inside the pool. That would be very nice. You’ve worked with a number of people over your career.

What was the most important piece of advice you received that has stayed with you throughout your career?

Overall view of zoos, what zoos can be done, should be done. Dr. Koga back in Tokyo made a big influence. Individually, I met very interesting people, such as Dr. Patricia O’Connor. The first female zoo veterinarian in the country back in Staten Island. Learned a lot. Of how, with limited resources, she left behind large projects done, such as the literature of zoo animals from several different languages across the world into one book. On grant, she did that. And she was instrumental in the regional primate research center.

That was one of her brain children. So even with limited resources, you can do that. With imagination, and determination. Imagination, not many people have. Determination, not very many people have. But Pat did it.

Are you concerned about zoos and aquariums staying viable and relevant in the next 25 years?

What direction would you say would help them stay permanent?

Zoos will, despite all the anti-captivity forces, zoos will remain, because it’s a very popular institution in an urban community, and even politicians and the government, high level officials, recognize how important it is. So I wouldn’t worry about that, in the aspect. Inside the zoo staff, there will be more need for connecting the zoo operations with the in situ population conservation effort. Now, we have, when we talked about elephants, we have a number of zoos that have devoted vast amounts of land, acres, to their elephant collection. Some zoos that are private have devoted thousands of acres to elephants.

What’s your thoughts about private zoos, owned by people of means?

Will they, in your opinion, survive the length of time that municipal zoos have?

I think so.

Or is this just a short amount of time, because what happens when those people’s means are no longer there?

I believe a small number will remain, and do quite well. And some municipal zoos, or nonprofit organization zoos, do quite well. Back to the elephant, good examples might be in Tucson, Arizona. You know, outside of desert museum there, that zoo. In a half-moon shaped enclosure, it’s almost a panorama of elephant facility, not very deep, but wide. And the public can really enjoy siblings playing in the pool in summer. In other word, elephants don’t have to do any tricks. I’m not (coughing), I’m not against elephants doing tricks.

I’ve done that myself. But when they play with themselves, or they, okay, key word is they interact with each other in the pool or in the yard, playing or confronting, that’s what public loves to see, and public discovers, and that can be done, yes. And good example, on over there in Tucson.

It’s interesting that Tucson had that Arizona desert museum, is that the name?

Anyway, the desert museum, which specializes in the local fauna and flora, and the other one, Reid Park Zoo, specializes in the exotic, quote unquote, exotic animals, so therefore, they don’t have to compete with each other in the relatively small city. That’s a good model. You’ve written extensively.

Have there been any publications you’ve written that you feel have made a big impact, or a strong impact on the profession?

You mean authors, or?

Your writing. My writing. That you will have to ask readers probably 20 years from now. Maybe even now. How it is, but it’s almost like a, cast thy bread upon the waters to call from Old Testament. Yes, cast thy bread upon the waters. You may get it years later, but it’s like shooting in the dark. You don’t know if you’re hitting the target or not.

So again, only the time will tell my contribution, your contribution even. Now over the years, you’ve had a number of mentors.

Were there any lessons that specific mentors left you that stayed with you?

Pieces of advice that have carried you through your career, or that may help other curators?

Right. I’ll say Dr. Koga. Briefly I befriended Patricia O’Connor. That was almost a shiny moment. There must be a number of others. Maybe too many to mention.

None that jump out at you?

Jump out. Go ahead.

Well, would you recommend this zoo and aquarium field to a young person who had a sincere interest in wildlife and conservation today, and why would you if you would recommend it?

Why would I recommend it?

Well, we need- Would you recommend this profession, and why?

I’d recommend capable and dedicated young persons to come to the zoo world for a first few years. You may be discouraged. You may get disappointed, because it’s the human world. But stick around if you are determined, just stay two, three years. See where you are going, and what your future will be, five years, 10 years from now. And with the determination and tenacity if you stay, maybe you have a bright future. Remember that zoos are really a human institution. You have to work through other people.

Bosses and subordinates. Yet you may have a bright future.

Do you feel that curators, senior staff, in North American zoos, should be visiting and learning more from their counterparts in Europe?

Yes, I believe in it. It might be an eye opener. In my experience, despite some language barriers, oftentimes I find young people sharing the same wavelength in Europe, and somehow we hit together real well. That, I’m afraid, you’d have that experience more in Europe than back home. That’s my experience.

Do you feel it’s the same in Asia?

No. Cultural historical differences. Houses are perceived. Houses are run. It’s quite different. So I would say learn from Europe. You may learn some negatives in other continents, and other regions, but I’d say open your eyes to Europe. Europeans come see our zoos, but not the other way around.

They have more limited resources than us, such as financial aspect, yet they don’t mind, they are not afraid of stepping into other countries, and learn from them. You have to learn, you have to honor that. And in the zoo field, there have been some large advancements, for example, Hagenbeck and the moats to remove bars. And just recently, the night safari in Singapore. Singapore, yeah. That is a zoo exclusively open only at night.

Do you feel there have been other big advancements like that, that have moved zoos in a large degree, or are there some that you think are still coming?

They are still coming. Not here yet. I haven’t seen the one in Singapore, but I would like to sometime, very much. Because it will be an eye opener. It would be a surprise, because after dark, not birds, but most mammals come alive, look quite different, from the daytime.

Do you feel that there’s enough, when new exhibits are built, you mentioned it, that there’s enough research done by zoo staff with animals in the wild, or in other captive situations, to ensure their exhibit is going to meet the needs of the animals?

It’s headed that way, but rather slowly. Even the space requirement is sort of experimental stage. Some people think certain animals need more space, especially the members of the public, what people forget is quality versus quantity of the space. The large mammals may not necessarily require in terms of the simple figure, but what quality do you give them, as opposed to quantity. Flat space, or a variety of climbing devices. Up and down levels. There is an open field. A lot can be done.

We, terrestrial, we only see in one dimension, because we live basically on the ground level. Utilize the space above the ground, for instance. Which zoo was it that you walk around, suddenly you see a jaguar staring down at you, in the wide open walkway. I think it was Mickey Ollson’s zoo. Sure Philadelphia or someone else back east did that. But that’s a different approach. Only because we live on the ground, walk on the ground, doesn’t mean every other animal does that. So give more dimension, that’s the term.

Multiple dimension. Zoos have often said that their pillars are conservation, education, research.

Do you feel that zoos in the future need to concentrate on one of those more than others?

Is education the most important thing, or not?

That’s my view. Education is the most important one. Even ahead of conservation, because you have to open public’s eyes for the need of nature. You are keeping the ambassadors of wildlife in your hand. You have a responsibility to introduce them to the public.

Now what do you know about, what do you know about the profession that you have devoted so many years of your life to?

What do I know about?

Yeah, what do you know about this zoo profession, that you have devoted so many years of your life to?

It’s a worthwhile field. I’ve been very fortunate that, maybe I’m repeating myself, but I’ve been very fortunate, but childhood dream came true, with up and down, twists and turns, difficulties. I lived decades in the zoo field, and in the process, I met with such great people, such as Dr. Koga, and by correspondence, Hediger, and Pat O’Connor. Many others. I would even say that Mark Rosenthal, or someone, in Chicago. A great colleague. So I’ve been very fortunate in that aspect, with wonderful animals, sometimes being chased around and bitten. It’s all my fault, not their fault.

But, so. I’m very pleased with how it turned out. Happy person in that aspect.

How would you like to be remembered?

Your legacy?

Legacy. Just read what I write. (laughing) Then you’ll find out. You be the judge, not the author. No. Thank you, Ken. Anytime.