Gunther Nogge

My name is Gunther Nogge. I was born 10th of January in 1942 at Cologne.

What was your childhood like?

I’m sorry, Your childhood? What Was your childhood?

Well, after the war, my father died 1943 when I was one year in the war. I don’t have any memory of him. So my mother brought me up on her own. She never married again and she had to earn her life and her money and to bring me up. And he did it in a wonderful way. I was able to visit high schools, what we say. And in the end also, she financed my university study. So Cologne was destroyed. We had to fled from here.

And our house later on was in, in fact in destroyed. And I was brought up in a small village with four farm farms. There was nothing else. No church, no what you say, guest house or something like that. No restaurant. So this was a time which I enjoyed very much living in the countryside, living with animals, with, we had cattle, we had swines, we had one horse and of course chicken. And this was a self-sustaining farm, which was possibly, at that time it does not exist anymore. It is the land is bought, bought, bought up by a company, whatever. And they do the work.

Now, my mother first found a job in hort nearby at the company where she had worked for before the war in Claw Fuko. And where she became known to my father. And they got married in 1973. And this was in August? No, it is not true. It was in July, 1939 that they’re married. And on the 1st of September, my father was in the war, first in Poland, sometime in Denmark. He was mounted several times and in the end, he died in, in 1943. So this company, telecon move, wanted to move back to the Rhineland, but for what reasons ever they didn not go back to Cologne, but to Dusseldorf, nearby city.

And of course I had to to follow her, but she didn’t have a a an own apartment. This was a, a rented room, furnish room, that’s it for many years until she got the first living apartment. And I was put into internet.

Is it called internet?

That’s, This is establishment where children mostly don’t have any parents or don’t have only one parent are housed and school and et cetera. And I was not very happy there. So I was glad after some years that I could leave the, this establishment and was brought up in until the maturation aura we call it. And then I wanted to study, not in Dusseldorf, but not in Cologne. Meanwhile, we had moved to Cologne. My mother had a new job and I didn’t like the university here. It looks awful. So I went to Bun University. So the Zoological Institute is in a castle.

In a barrack castle. And it’s wonderful. The whole university is in the castle. But the Zoological Institute was in a separate little class. And I liked it very much and did my studies. And when I finished my studies, I was sent to Afghanistan. We had an affiliation, I mean the Bond university and the Kabul University had an affiliation so that German docents were, were sent to Kabul University. And the post graduate students was, were sent here to do to further studies. Well, let me stop you for a moment ’cause we’re gonna talk about that.

But when you were, before you went to the university, the only zoo you had seen was cologne or no other Zoos?

Good, good question. Doff had a zoo destroyed and never rebuild after the war. So my first visit to the zoo was to book. And I was much impressed by ELAs, by polar bears, by great apes, and so on. From the beginning on I was enthusiastic about zoo animals. My second visit to a zoo was in fact to cologne from Disseldorf in the year 1956. At that time, a new polar bear exhibit was just finished, opened and everybody liked it and they came and look to look it. And there were successful breeding program. I think some 16 polar bears have been born there and brought up.

But when I was in director here many years later, more than 30 years later, I thought, this is not anymore. What do you say, up to date nowadays we have different opinions, how to keep polar bears and I stopped them the whole thing. When you, so you’re going to school generally, ’cause we’ll talk about each one, but you pursued a PhD At the university. Yes.

Why did you feel getting this degree was important to you?

Well, I went to bond to take up the study of zoology or biology, and I was much disappointed that all these interesting animals like gaffes, like hippos, like great Abe, like elephants, they don’t play any role in a university study. So I looked around and, and one the most interesting discipline for me was parasitology the life of two different species, symbiotic or parasitic. However, this was also very fascinating. And I applied in the Institute of Parasitology to make my diploma first and then my PhD.

But yet, am I correct, in 1965, you were an assistant animal keeper?

Yes, At the Cologne Zoo During my study when I was a student, I worked here as a animal keeper and learned very much because I was allowed to work in with the elephants, with great apes, even with birds, with hoofed stock. So I got a quite good overview of what animal keeper has to do. And this helped me also very much when I was a director. Nobody could tell me anything. I knew it. Now ultimately, you, you talked about that you went to become a lecturer at the, in Afghanistan.

Yes. And you became the scientific advisor, is that correct?

Yes, The zoo, Yes. And Practically I was a director of the zoo. There was nobody else, but my main job was those and at the university and on the sideline I managed the zoo, which was connected, which was founded by the university.

Did you feel that your time as a animal keeper at Cologne to help give you some knowledge and Of course – That you felt you could do this other job of advising the zoo?

Yes. Yes.

And were the zoo receptive to receiving your advice?

Yes, very much. And you must know this was, was the, what the Afghans themselves say, the golden time of Afghanistan. We were free to roam all over the country, which we did and saw every part of the country. And every three days I, we, we went out outside and on, on safari. Well, let’s talk about that. You did an expedition to the northeast. Yes. To the palm here.

How did you receive permission and what effect did it have on your general philosophy about animals?

Well, first of all, until then, there were only very few people allowed to go to the Palma. This was of course, a part of Afghanistan, but it was ruled by Kgi Han. And he communicated directly with the Afghan king on the same level, you know, and I had to get permission by the king himself to go to that part of Afghanistan. And we were very lucky and we were very proud that we received the permission. And then we went on a safari of about six weeks, first with the lorry until the, there was no street anymore. And then we were went further with Yucks to take the load. I mean, whatever we needed there. This were tens, this was everything, scientific stuff, et cetera.

So I think we had about at least 20 Ys and we were on horseback. And it took us several days to, to come to the great palm here where the kgi are living. The Kgi at that time were the last free living tese because all the rest of them were in a, either in the Soviet Union or in China. So the, the connection between their folks, KGI was completely cut, cut off. And when they had to ated with Afghanistan, of course, and for when there was any political question, it was discussed with the king himself, south. So when the Soviet Union conquered actually Afghanistan, they were afraid and left the country via to to Pakistan. And from there, one day they were moved to the Turkey and they’re still living in Turkey. On the other hand, there are a few people again, which live in their old home home country.

This was fascinating because yeah, it was a unique situation And you saw unusual animals. Of course we saw Marco Polo, we saw Marco Polo sheep. We saw severe in, I we did not see, but we, we saw a remnants of snow leopards. And I think Afghanistan is one of the few countries where the snow leopards are more or less saved by compensation of losses, compensation by the government for losses in horse, not in, in sheep, et cetera. And while you were giving advice to the zoo in Kabul, were you able to reach out to other zoo people for advice or was it all dependent on your knowledge of what you had Practically yes. I didn’t have contacts to the German zoo community at, at that time and actually to nobody. So I did do my best.

What would you say was the importance of the Ka zoo?

It is a good example why zoos in these developing men developing countries need zoos even more than we in Europe and the, and the United States, of course, the people have heard about snow, Leos have heard about bacterial pity, about cheetah, et cetera, but they never saw one E even in people in that area live, living in that area hardly saw a leopard or as a snow leopard. So this is the zoo was the chance to introduce the local, the national fauna to the people. And this was a great success. Everybody in the country who came to Kabul wanted to see the zoo. Nobody left the city without having visited the zoo. And of course we tried to to, to spread the message of endangered species of the chance to, to save them like we do everywhere nowadays.

What problems did you encounter at the zoo as you were advising them and how did you solve some of them?

How did we, – What problems did you find at the Cabo Zoo when you were advising them and how were you able to help solve them?

Yes, the administration in Afghanistan is very complicated and it’s very foreign, foreigner, even impossible to handle. But I, from the university as an advisor, was free to do what I wanted. The general expenses for food and salary was done by the university. Every money which came in at the gate was for my disposition. I could make what I want. And when developed the zoo in that year, years, three years, four years almost to one of the best zoos in the Middle East. Small but fine. It’s only three hectares.

Can you talk about in Afghanistan, the wars and how this affected the zoo yourself and the welfare of the animals?

Well, I left the country before all struggle started and the occupation by the Soviet Union. And after that, the tax, the war, even among the mujahideen, the different, you know, people fighting for their freedom and independence. So I, in that time, I didn’t have any contact there. But in the struggles with the mujahideen in that time, the zoo was destroyed, the animal were killed. There practically were, was nothing left except for one lion, old lion. Blind lion. And I can tell you why he was blind. One of the talibans or one of the Afghans went into the enclosure and wanted to make a picture to have a picture from him himself at the lion. And the lion was astonished that somebody entered his territory and killed him and his brother, of course he had to to make weapons, revenge.

And he shot him in the face. So he was blind. And meanwhile he was so old and he was so fragile and he was practically one of the few animals which had survived. And when the international army conquered Afghanistan, after the Taliban had been all in the course of keeping the Taliban, Taliban out, there were a mass of journalists following them about thousand journalists. And they came to Kabul and saw the lion and made this a sensation, you know, everywhere in the world from CS CNS, this until the German Corona Express reported on the poor animal. And the, the animal welfare groups in the whole world collected money. And there were very soon half a million of dollars spent, not spent given for, for this lion. And one of the, the heads of the, one of the English welfare groups came to Afghanistan and brought him meat, so much meat, which he was not accustomed to that he died few years, few days later on Christmas, I think 2001, this was a very amazing story.

So, and then I say said to me, they have half a million dollar what want they to do with it?

It is the best chance to build up the zoo. And I traveled immediately to, to Afghanistan with old pictures, with plans, what I had and offered to build up the zoo for half a million dollars. But there were others who had the hand on the money in particular in America, North Carolina. And she said, no, this was spent by people who love animals to, to feed them, to host them this trustful welfare of the existing animal collection. So there was no nothing for development. And so I resigned from the, from that project later on, they got much money from, I don’t know which international organization to build up the zoo, but not in the way it has been. But new ideas. And it looked terrible to me.

During this time, were you starting to think about a management philosophy for a zoo?

’cause you were kind of involved with this zoo. Were you thinking?

I published a paper how to run a zoo in a development country from all sides of economics and Phil Philosophical.

And did you, I at that time when you were a scientific advisor, did you deal with other zoos to bring in animals?

Yes. Or the Kabul Zoo?

Yes, with the Tehran Zoo, which was led by a German former animal, not keeper, but dealer. He was engaged by Hagenbeck.

So I visited him, we became friends and we got, do you say owner?

We say on, you say I’m not, Which we saw yesterday and you said on Ger O-N-A-G-E-R? Yes. But if it starts with O we pronounce it O Ah Onga. Okay, I’m sorry. No, no, no. Okay. So, and we got that from them. It was our ambition to have all animals of Afghanistan in the little zoo to display it to the people. So we got these in my time and I think it was it.

And you said zoos are important to developing countries?

Yes. Because it’s somewhere for people to go. Yeah. So they learn to know their own fauna and they don’t have any chance on their own to go to the wild and see bits or a mountain goats or Marco or whatever. Marco Polo. And you left Afghanistan because your contract or you Were Yes, was finished after four years in 1973.

Can you tell me about your research and your great interest in the Siti fly?

Yes. My prof professor, well he actually asked me to work on these ies, he was one of the first entomologists working with isotopes, you know, radioisotopes. And he marked food and looked how it spread in a colony of ants, et cetera. And he gave courses even for the International Agency of Energy, atomic energy in Florida, in Gainesville every year and so on. So and so he wanted, and very new at that time was the sterile insect technique. And he had seen coch EA or troga in us, which was very successful. And meanwhile, there were other insects in the agriculture which were now eradicated even by the insect technology, I mean the sterile insect technology. And he said, you start with ies, I read it. And this is an own world, own closed world of a few people who work on ies.

And these were mostly the countries which had colonies, France, Belgium, England, red Berlin, not in America, there was nobody at that time. So they didn’t have any relation to have to to ies. So I started a new breeding of ies. We had to self-sustaining colony of IES for our research purposes. But you had to have to have the ies, you cannot import every day or every week flies from Africa. So we had to build up our own self-sustaining population of jet flies, very successful. And we did our research mainly on the embo endo symbiosis. The IES rely on bacteria to provide them certain vitamins.

And this was mainly my part, but I was involved also in research project field projects in which is in nowadays, what do you call it now, the upper, it was named Zo Boso. There was one successful project run by the Americans, by the way, in Tonga, Tanzania there, a third one in Nigeria. And I had the chance to go everywhere. And when I was in Africa, this was my first safaris into the wild to see elephants in giraffes, et cetera. I combined it, I extended my stay, my official stay for a few days to see something from the RA and the foreigner. Ultimately though, you leave the universities and in 1981 you become director of the Cologne Zoo. And the position was offered or you wanted to be the director. I applied for the, what we say for the admission, not admission advertisement of the PO position.

And what prompted you to say I want to leave university teaching and go be the head of a zoo?

Practically, I was my, my term at the university ended with my rehabilitation and I had to look for a job and I still keep a file of applications in my home in universities and also zoos, which originally had me my wish to work in a zoo. So this was my chance. I applied for this position and for what reasons ever they took me.

And who did you replace, who was the director before you?

This is also amazing. This was Ant Coolman. He was a spider specialist. He came from the university, he had founded the zoo in Kabul and then he was a director, the head of the Department of Zoology in Ro, not in Rostock, in K in the north of Germany. And for what reason he was selected as a zoo director, I don’t know. And he failed also after five years, they did not prolong his contract. Now I was very much astonished that I could follow somebody who had this, actually the same professional stations. He came from Bo, from the Bonnet University. He went to Afghanistan to teach in the university and founded the little, so he went back to the Uni University of Bon until he got the drop in kil and then he became the director of Lonzo.

So our careers are so similar that I thought they never take somebody from the university anymore. And why they did, I don’t know.

What kind of zoo did you find when you came to Cologne?

It was a little old fashioned, my, my pre-processor, he was not very successful. He didn’t develop the zoo in a proper way and he had brought up the whole stuff against him so they couldn’t continue with them.

And when you became the director, how did the staff react to you as director?

With no previous meaningful zoo experience, They were certainly very skeptical. But on the other hand, some of the animal keepers knew me from my time as a student working myself as a animal keeper. Well, and I had a quite well reputation. And of course this rule the long way, I was director of the zoo. And you indicated that you had to prove yourself to your professional colleagues. They also were not quite sure about you from others Directly. Of course, of course. They were just after they had seen this failure of my pre-deal, sir.

So I was welcome, very skeptical in the first years. Now we’ve talked about it a little bit. You are new, you are now the director of the zoo, you had to manage this zoo.

What was your management style?

What, what kind of leader were you, in your opinion?

Well, I learned very much from the books of Edgar and I all my time as a director. I, from time to time, looked into what Hegar had said. Otherwise I had in the few first years, very few contacts to my German colleagues. And the one who pulled me into the international society. I mean community was Dick Fond. He spoke to Les Fisher, who was a president at that time. There’s a new man in Germany, we should invite him as an observer, as was at that time. And I behaved quite well.

So I was adopted as a member of Wza and very soon I was president, not chairman of the membership committee from many years. And by this I was a member of the board of of, of the ZA and involved in everything.

So as the new director, did you have any kind of tricks to help manage the people that were working under you?

Anything that you did to try and manage these people and to help them do their jobs?

I mean they did their jobs better, but sometimes it was a little bit to convince them. When we started new methods, like the coordinated breeding programs, for instance, the breeding loan method, you know that you are not anymore owner of your own animals. You give that to the coordinator of the breeding problem. This work was a new thinking and for some of the curators was hardly to understand, but in the end they follow us.

So when you became the director, were there management issues that you had to deal with right from the beginning?

Well, one of our greatest problems were finances. And I don’t remember the exact number, exact fi figure. We paid a lot of money for water, I think some 10% of the oil. So this was incredible. And we started to save money by not cleaning every, every stall with the hose water hose. But sometime you can do it also with the person. Huh. So, and other means brought down the costs for, for water very much. And this was my first success in, in the financing of the, of the zoo.

Secondly, we, one year after I became director in 82, we founded a Society of Friends of the Zoo to get money by membership, by sponsorship. And this helped us, in fact to to to build new exhibits. And the first one was the Great Ape exhibit, which was opened in 85.

So can you talk a little bit about the structure and management of the zoo?

Who owns it? How does it run?

From a municipal standpoint?

Yes. You indicated friends of the zoo, but they’re, they’re, Yeah, of course. Now this zoo was founded in 1860, like other zoos. All other zoos in Germany at that time as a shareholding company. And this worked very well. The shareholders never got a benefit. In the first years they had a, a ticket, I mean injured ticket. But this was given up later on because this is a kind of subsidy for the owners. Now in the bird economic crisis, in the twenties the zoo went bankrupt.

There was no money anymore and they had to close. But the city was very eager to keep the zoo open. And they bought up about 90% of the shares, 90% of the shares. And it brings up the subsidy. It was the political will that the people of cologne can continue to use this offer to see animals at the zoo.

Did you, what was the most, when you first got in was the, what was the most important problem?

You said, I must fix this right away. Was it the water?

Yes. Okay. When did You And of course the subsidy from the city was about 80% in the beginning, but shrink from year to year. So they left the zoo, but they didn’t want to pay anymore. So we had to bring up all money for investigations, for building new exhibits, et cetera, by our own, by ticket money of course. And we took up credits, bank credits, which had to be paid back by an addition on the entrance price. So the people, the friends of the zoo, they paid for the great air power. And this was achieved in three years.

Now when did you start thinking about future planning when you first came?

Or were you starting to develop, did you think you wanted to do a master plan for the zoo?

There was a master plan from the fifties, which almost was fulfilled. And then after some time we developed our own master plan. And how long do you think a master plan should be? Good for Sure my successor made a new master plan. Which difference? Not so very much from what, what I have made of my master plan. And you talked about when you were here, the difficulty in getting the European endangered species, species program established. Mm. But you were successful.

Yes. Did the zoo have to deal with, because it was a holding company, does the zoo have to deal with unions or not?

Yes, They do. And how did that affect the zoo’s development and running?

Were there limitations because of union issues?

We didn’t have any problems with the union unions. You become director.

But what surprised you about the position of director?

That you could talk about the good things that surprised you and the bad things?

Well all in a sudden you are a well known person in the city because you appear in the papers and the radio and tv, et cetera. So very quickly you are, I mean, established in the Cologne Society and you are invited to all events, which I was never invented before. So this was very nice, very attractive. Interesting. What were some of the, that’s the good thing.

What about some of the things that may have surprised you in a bad way?

Oh, I don’t know if I can call it bad, but after some few years already, I could not move through the city. Everybody knew me and some wanted to greet me, et cetera. But nowadays, you see after 20 years ago to the city, nobody knows me anymore.

Do you have any stories that you could share with us, situations in the zoo where you learned something as director that where you learned a lesson?

I, myself, Yes, Until lesson I had to learn very much because my poor zoo experience was very limited. But if you ask me not specifically, I had to learn. It’s all too long ago.

Were you, were you involved heavily in having to do policy for the zoo and budgeting for the zoo?

Of course, yeah. And would you have to then present this budget to the holding company First, to the holding company and I had to submit my records to the City of Cologne to the government for the subsidy we receive.

And how difficult was budgeting for you?

Did you enjoy this part of the job?

I think yes, yes. Was very interesting. Were you able to do it on your own or were there people guiding you through the process of the Of course I Paperwork, Of course I have had a very good, what do you say, leader of the administration department, the financial department. So they were, without them I could not do it and all at all, but these people were very good and made the right proposals and I agreed on it mostly and then submitted it to the board of trustees and also to the city government.

Did you develop policies?

Did you develop policies that helped change the zoo?

Like how to feed animals or policy about handling animals or about moving animal?

Did you have policies that you started to think about and implement for the running of the zoo?

Certainly we improved feeding, we improved transportation, all these kind of things.

In this master plan that you did, what did you design and, and add in the planning?

Did you help make a couple of exhibits that you wanted to go first in the master plan that were key to you and making the Cologne Zoo better her?

Well, the main exhibit I could complete in my time was were the elephants. And in the old master plan from the fifties, there was no word, no idea to keep the elephants elsewhere as in this old building from 1864. And of course time has changed. We have learned very much more about the life of elephants in nature and also in, in the zoo. And it was really challenged to build a new exhibit, appropriate exhibit for elephants. And the first of thing, elephants don’t live in groups of two or three. These are family herds. And you have males which meet from time to time on the family group and you have to, to make provisions to separate the male from time to time and to allow the whole family group roam all of the place and do what they like.

So at, at first the exhibit must be large enough and we offered 10% of the space of this Sioux for elephants. Formally there had been moved stock mainly and a big pond, which is now gone.

So for the benefit of the elephants, Do you have in your mind what the ideal zoo exhibit design approach is?

What’s, what components are important in putting together an exhibit?

What I said before, people, visitors should believe that this exhibit looks like in nature is a part of nature. I think this is most necessary.

And ultimately, was it difficult to pick the final design for the elephant park?

Was it a difficult choice For the board?

For the, for the elephant park design?

Yeah, yeah. Well I, it did not take much effort to convince my board on the necessity of a new elephant house. The alternation would have been that we stop elephants and this building, I would never keep elephants, animals, I mean elephants on the long term.

So, and then of course everybody said, now could I do without, without elephants?

This is not possible. So they agreed on a new project, they agreed on the large project, which is only also very costly and insulting. We had first to collect our own ideas and I took one expert on Asian elephants in Germany, Fred Cook, he has spent his life in India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Myanmar, that was a man who knows most on animals, on elephants in the wild. So, and I’m, at that time I was a close friend to him. Meanwhile, he has died. So we jointly developed a program for the architect. I mean, all the needs for elephants, you have to tell then tell that to the architects because the architects don’t have any idea of keeping an elephant. So this was advertised in the whole of Europe and there were 1,500 plants submitted, but we didn’t know the names of them.

But in the end it, it ended in an architect in which I was very satisfied because it, if I would have an architect from Ugal, it would little be different to communicate with him.

Were you involved in any way in the fundraising for this?

Yes, yes. There’s a long board of sponsors in the place where yesterday were, I don’t know how many hundred of people who sponsored the elephant house with different sized sums.

Did you enjoy fundraising?

Sometimes I met very nice people to some of which I today still have contacts.

Were the employees at the Colon Zoo, were they diverse?

Were they all men? Were there women keepers?

If not, when did women keepers start at the zoo when you were here?

All men, Not only, not all, all of them, but about 90%. And every year we, we, we advertised the position of the, what do we call the learning animal keeper. And we took at least two females to two to three males. And by the way, by the time the staff is now, I think at least 50% female, if not more. And the interesting thing was that my female curators were strict against it because if you have an animal, female animal keeper who cannot take a load of let’s say 20 kilogram, then he has to call for a male colleague to help her. I didn’t like that this was a argument, but I insisted in it every year, at least two female applicants.

Did you start the conservation on an international level?

Did you start the conservation things, these programs when you were director?

The field aspect, I’m not quite sure, but at least we were one of the first to be involved in field projects and the first was to provide the horse lion submarine.

And did the job allow you to travel to see other zoos?

And if you visited other, were you taking back things that you’d seen to cologne to apply?

Yes, of course. The, the wonderful thing in this job is that this is an international community and you have an international organization of zoo za and you join or attend conferences and you come to Japan, to Australia, to America, of course. And each time I took some days to visit zoo in those countries or national parks in those countries. And I learned very much just seeing different zoos.

Why in was it important for you to start lectures at the zoo?

The academic world is not much interested in zoo. So if you make your your lectures on your own, you get the students, you can tell them what Zeus are about and what they want. And it was a chance for me to re Reid a lot of scholars, I mean diploma PhD candidates. So this in, in the consequence, we had a lot of research work done in the zoo. So this was very important. And I’m very great that the leader of the aquarium, curator of the aquarium, he’s also rehabilitated and member of the university staff and he attracts a lot of students. And so this tradition is living.

Can you relate your story of the snow crane and its symbolism to you?

There’s one colony of snow cranes, which usually crossed Afghanistan twice, and there was a resting place called Abe, somewhere far away in the desert. And one day I must say that I visited this Abe each month, once each month to count the bird species. And at one of my visits, I think it was November, no, October, I saw three snow cranes, two adults and one, I mean a youngster.

And then I wanted to see the place where the hiate, this is in, what is it called?

Ka whatever, Ghana in India near, this is a sanctuary for birds hunting. First of all, it was a hunting safari area. And I met, we met them there, the three which I had seen in Afghanistan. And very shortly after that, this population was extinct. And Archibald, you know, from the Crane Foundation, he came to Afghanistan. And nowadays there are advertising posters to save the crane. There is presently no crane crossing Afghanistan, but there may be today there is a, a breeding station, professional breeding station in Russia where they breed cranes and we breed them out by the way, but on a small scale, but they do it on a large scale to introduce the snow crane again, at least in Russia. There was one population in the western in Russia, which hibernated on the Caspian sea, and maybe one day our colony, which migrated over Afghanistan will be reestablished.

So, so this was very, I think a very fascinating idea. I believe in it. And that is why the snow crane is for me, a symbol for what two can achieve. You mentioned that after the war colon and of course the zoo were devastated.

Yes. Can you relate to us any stories about the war years and how it affected the Cologne Zoo specifically when people were trying justifying food to keep their animals alive when people were just looking for food?

I mean, how did the Warriors affect the Cologne Zoo?

Very much, it was boomed also. So there were more than 130 spots where booms had fallen down. And at the end of the war, there were not more than 22 individuals. And all what had, has survived was kept in the old elephant towers. And there were some keepers who came back after the war to look after the animals. And I think some of them were those people who lived here on top of the, this room, what I showed to Paul to live during lunchtime. So, and that was the beginning. And in 1949, the zoo was reopened after first, I mean cleaning of the area, but there were still very few animals, but they came and one of them was a very, became a very famous specimen.

This was a chimpanzee, a chimpanzee in this desert of, of dust. And yes, this was a sensation. People came, a lot of people came just to see the chimp chimpanzee symbol for the recreation rebuilding of the zoo. And he was used for marketing, what do you say, purposes, he at carnival, he was, had a little uniform as carnival’s people were, and he was brought to the different sessions, as we say. And he was the star in the community. Everybody know, knew him. Now, when a chimpanzee gets old, grown up, he is because it, it might happen in aggression, an accident. And so since then, he was not displayed anymore outside with, for the fun of the people.

But in this house, there was a Peterman, he was called Peterman in this house after glass green. And he always thought he was a man, not a chimp, because we adopted so much our own behavior, et cetera. Even when he got to comp companion, female companion didn’t interest, this was a chimp. I am a man. So there were sexual relations, no, nothing. So this is, well, a misbehavior, a misled education of chimps. And not to, he never had the chance to learn the behavior of chimpanzees. So he, he always was around by people and they had their fun in watching it, et cetera. All of a sudden he was there in a, in a cage.

And many years people didn’t know that this guy was the, the peterman. They have left once so very much and had some fun with it. And he was just there sitting down and cleaning the floor with some stuff, et cetera, some stereotype movement. And as you know, great apes observe people they see every day and they build them in their social structure. So there are frequent visitors which are known, welcomed or not welcomed. And as a zoo director who comes every day in the zoo, he found out that I had obviously a high ranking position in our society. And this made him very angry. And he wanted to show that he was the man in the house and he made the chimpanzee, you know, exposure of dominancy, et cetera.

And one, and in particular in the evening when I had a, a guided tour and 30 people looked to me, listen to me. This made him very few. Now, one day he got the chance to make me my position, try to other, to, to what, what do I say, to take it from me, this dominant position. And one of the young keepers, I must say young keepers had left the door open and all of a sudden the two chimpanzees were outside and they were outside the zoo in the, in the, in the zoo. And accidentally I came along the way with my colleague from M Zoo who had had a, what do we say, presentation at the Zoo Society, I mean society of the friends of the zoo the day before. And we went through the zoo just to talk about everything as zoo directors do. And the Peter van saw me and directly approached me and aggressed me. Now, Jims are not only strong than me, they also quicker than me.

I tried to escape in the backstage of this house, but failed. I couldn’t, I was not quick enough.

And then the fall about me and made wanted to, to, to make me my position, what do you say?

Society, whatever they wanted to, to be the dominant individuals, the alpha individuals and such an attack is quite heavy, but also quite short. Might have been minute one and a half minute, not all. And then they saw that I gave up. So the question was solved. He was the alpha man, not me. I was lying down. And then, this is most interesting. One of the old animal keepers who worked at that time already in the new Great ape house came to help the, the young men here. And they separated the gym from me and took him on his hand and walked away to his cage.

But the Peterman was too clever. He said, no, it’s so early, I don’t, don’t want to go already back to my home. And went out. So again, so the two chimps now roamed over the zoo. They were full of blood, this was my blood.

And people said, look, the chimp is bloody and what is, what is the meaning?

And the situation was very dangerous for the visitors who meanwhile had I entered the zoo. And so there was no other, they had tried to catch the Chis impossible. Then they decided to destroy, I mean to shoot down both Chis Peterman was, had one of these islands and was shot there by one of our, our own gunmen. The people who are allowed to to to shoot the other one. The female meanwhile had left the zoo over the wall and was in the garden of a house there and then in a cellar. And the police came, it was outside the zoo and they shot him down. So at that time, because this accident was so heavy, I was brought to the clinic and operated eight hours to, to man me together. So unfortunately nothing was broken except for this one.

This was already there, still there.

And I asked the doctor later, why didn’t you fix it?

He said, your operation was so long, eight hours. And also this would have been stiff and it is of no help for you. So we shut it, shut it up, and cleaned it. Finished, yeah, Excuse me. What I wanted to say is because this accident was so heavy and I was in danger of life for several days, there was not a great opposition, not up raw by the people. As nowadays you have all the shit storms, et cetera. So at that time, this was very calm. Nobody erected, not nobody.

Few people reacted, but not in such a aggressive form. And for many years, Peterman was known in Cologne till today is known in Cologne, the, there were the friends of Peterman who founded a football team called Peterman Peterman. Meanwhile there are books, novels, comic book. There are, what do we say, Oman, just stories. Then there are documentary films about the life of Peterman. And they made a good drop. On the one hand, they showed how a person and an animal of the zoo can be known all over the city. And even after his death. This is amazing.

There are some few animals and other zoos like Kke. He was a hippo living in Berlin, Bazo in the, and survived the World War and some few others. But this Peter man is living through still today, just recently there is a new, was founded a new distillery who produce whiskey called Peterman. There is recently, a few years ago they produced theater piece with Peterman, which is well done. And it’s, I mean showed and every year, every just several times. So Peterman lives and I have to live with that because whatever I’ve done in the zoo, nobody interests. But there was a man who, who was attacked by the Peterman.

Huh? This escape and these injuries, did that help you start to think about policy for escaped animals?

Yes. To make it Better?

Yes. Yeah, of course we did.

Now you were director of the zoo for how many years?

25. And you retired?

Yes. – Was your retirement from the zoo bittersweet because you had to take the zoo to court and why did you have to do this?

Ah, yes. This is forgotten. This is was a bad play of my board. For some reasons they wanted to cut my pension, but they, I went to the judge and of course I get that, but I have to get finished and I forgot about it. My memories to the zoo time are not in any way disturbed by this.

But you did get your pension?

Yes, of course. Yeah. Okay. I could ask you your favorite animal, but I would think that depending on who we are talking to you would change your mind.

Yeah. – So you have a number of favorite animals, would that be correct?

Well, yes. Well this is the most put question by journalists, which is your favorite animal. And I never dare to say it, it is a dead fly. I lived 10 years with 30 flies. I know everything about it. There is nobody else, not in the world, but in Germany, who knows more about this creature. And in the beginner, I really considered to have this pop, pop, I mean breeding population in the insectary, but it is very, I mean you need the blood because they feed only on blood and you have to get blood, fresh blood from cattles also every week. And to send somebody through this lottery, et cetera. This is very complicated. And I gave up. And also the does not look different from other flyers.

So I gave that up very, very soon. To the journalist, I say I am like a good family father who does not have favorites among his children. They are all in the same way, beloved and cared for. So there is no favorite. And they were satisfied by, by this question. And to ask to answer the question from the beginning, you ask, you have a collection of favorite animals. That’s true. And this changed from time to time. When we were building the Great Ape House.

I read everything about great Apes Go Really, and chimpanzees and I still have a long library with the literature on great apes. Afterwards we had other projects and in the, in the end it was largest projects, elephants. And of course I read everything about elephants to learn how they learn live in nature so that we can make the best of it in the zoo Zoo.

Would you, could you name the one animal species which you consider to be the most significant that you acquired in your career?

Hmm. Difficult to answer. I’m not a stamp collector. What used to be the zoo director in the old time. So I asked always myself, which is the purpose of this animal. And my guideline was Bill’s publication, how to exhibit a bull frog. You can do so much, you can transport so many messages from one bull frog if you make it right. So I selected animals.

Really what is the purpose of it?

What would, what won’t you do? What won’t you be to achieve?

What should the people learn?

And if they don’t learn anything, why should we keep the anymore?

Were there mountain gorillas?

Yes, at This zoo, Yes, of course. In the sixties, cologne Zoo had an affiliation with a young country, Rwanda and NDIA advised them to build up national parks and they wanted to, well, to present the city of Cologne or the zoo present. And that were two borders wild caught from the wild and at the time already dying Foe was working over there. And she did everything to prevent the export of these two individuals. But failed. 10 years later the two man Marilla, which were kept in the same house here, died. In any case, the Life of Dying Foe was published as a biography and came out in the think eighties, late eighties or early nineties. And also a film was made, you know, a movie, cinema movie. And I accidentally was at New York at the time when the film was, the movie was yeast.

And I sat in the audience and all on a sudden the name of Colon Z was mentioned.

And I was very, I mean, what do we say?

Excited about it. And I didn’t know what comes on me when the film comes here. When the premier of the GOs GOs in the Beast were in Germany, they were in Cologne, I went to the pre premier and when the word Cologne Zoo came, the audience laughed. Look, we are so famous. We are in the, we are in a movie. They didn’t understand anything. But I received, I received many, I mean lots of letters. And every letter was answered. And I explained the whole story with Winka and Rwanda, et cetera, and present to the zoo.

And that the times have changed that this would probably not happen anymore.

Talking about gorillas, what philosophy does the Gorilla Gina bring to mind and how you received her?

Yeah, this was my friend Dick Van Dam from Rotterdam. First he came and watched what we are building there and I said, we need some illa. We had, I think two or two and we want to build up a illa group. And two weeks later he came there with Gina hand raised gorilla and gave it to us. And I wanted to make a bleeding law agreement.

He, what do you say?

In insisted not to make one. He didn’t, didn’t need it for him. Animals were known from the nature. They did not belong to the zoo. They were known from the nature and we have to keep them at our best knowledge and experience, et cetera. So this was the first gorilla we got for the new house. And she was mother I, meanwhile she is grandmothers of several off aspects.

You were also involved with bearded vultures?

Yeah, it was, the zo was arrived ple He wanted to build up a, a breeding population to release, to release Birded vs in the Alps. But there were only very few specimen in Europe, some from raised, and I think then it stopped. But we had Birded, Wildes in Afghanistan, plenty in the zoo. So I sent them, I don’t remember, two or four specimens in change of, of mesh wire, which was not available in Afghanistan for the Boers, for, for the bird pages. So at least, at least these birds from Afghanistan helped to build up the population in Europe.

Can you talk about the issues associated with releasing a population of animals back into the wild?

What are the issues and can you talk about it in relation to what colon has done in the Chev Husky’s horse?

Are there problems?

What do you need to release an animal for Wild?

You talked about Yes, first of all, you have a, a successful breeding colony. If you don’t have animals you can release, you can’t release that. Secondly, you have to work with the olian government, the conservation department, et cetera. Management of national parks that they allow, that they agree that they want to have horses. This was the easiest part. And we had long years, very close relations to the national park in Goby.

What were some of the hard parts of the releasing animals into the water?

To get the money for the transport. Public relations. You have to look at the control of the pioneer population. You’ve talked about that these are some of the things that are involved. Again, The, the, when you’ve talked about releasing animals, you’ve talked about the suitable habitats. Yes. About the breeding population, training of the animals, public relations, control of the pioneer, Right. Population, All that.

Could you talk a little about all those little things that have to take place in order to be successful?

Of course, of course. Everything we did, I mean we were in close relation with the National Park and Mongolia and we provided them with the, the, the gardens, with clothing, et cetera, uniforms, et cetera. And we had to convince them about the importance of the horse, that it was their heritage, natural heritage, which no other country has. And they were very proud of it. And they still are.

What do you believe made you a good zoo director?

I don’t know if I was a good zoo director. Other people have to judge about it. And, but you were at the zoo as director for many years. 25. So you must have been doing some things correctly Otherwise they should have kicked me off earlier. That’s right. So What, okay if this, if this makes a good zoo director. I was a good zoo director.

Okay. What skillset do you think a zoo director needs today as compared to when you started?

You know, I’m a zoologist. I had to learn very much about economics, marketing and all these things, which I never used at the university. I was a researcher at the university, I learned that very much. But you have to, what you are occupied most today as a zoo director are the, what do we say, the builds which restrict you in your actions, restrict on keeping the animals on all kind of, if you like to transport an animal, you have to get permissions after permissions. And it takes all very much time to organize such a transport. So new people, I think are much more occupied with this well, unnecessary things. And if I, from time to time I visit, I attend the, what do we say, the general meetings of the German Association of Zoo, what these people have to discuss today. I don’t like it. I’m not interested anymore.

I didn’t have that at, at my time. So there’s a great scene change about the tasks of a modern zoo director and I would never apply again.

Co colon zoo is not a small zoo, but what can a small or a medium zoo do today to be involved in wildlife conservation, maybe nationally or internationally?

I, I think there are different ways. In general, small or middle-sized zoos can do the same as big zoos, not on such a large scale, but they can do the same things. Engage in conservation projects, participate in breeding programs, develop their education programs so that people who come to the zoo learn about the situation of nature and probably will be engaged themselves in conservation. Considering the financial resources available to, to many small or medium sized zoos.

What should be the focus, do you believe, of their collections?

Should it be only endangered species?

Should it be non endangered species?

What should be the focus for a smaller medium zoo in the collection?

I think there’s not, not much difference between the big zoos and smaller zoos. It’s just a matter of scale. Also being cologne, we have endangered species, we have non species. We keep some species for historical reasons, which are not endangered at all. But it is some, somehow reflecting the history of the zoo. So I think on under the line, medium sized zoos or, or even smaller zoos can participate in the same problems as weak zoos, not on such a big scale.

Can you talk about animal welfare groups in Europe and their relationship with zoos?

Can you give us your thoughts on how best to deal with these groups?

You have to speak with them. Some of these organizations are not willing to speak with you. So this is useless. But the big welfare organizations in Germany, they’re ready to talk and we can convince them of what we are doing. I, if you like, I can give you an present example please. The zoo in Berg, which is a big zoo, has Guinea baboons and one of the few zoos all over Europe. And of course these baboons reproduce. And after some time they stated, we don’t find anybody to, to take our offspring.

And they wanted to kill them. And they very frankly published this meaning in the media in advance. But, and then they killed the, the baboons, quite a number 12 individuals. And there was a, what do we say, a shit storm in the media. And the director gets say he is, excuse me, for my poor English there, I mean, people want to murder him. He has at least 120 attacks to murder him. This is the way today. So I think he’s very brave that he not hides it.

I think it’s never good. You, you can’t hide anything in zoo. Everything will go out via the animal keepers, via visitors. So you, you cannot hide anything in the zoo. And it was very brave of this director to announce it in, in in advance. And also when it has been done. Is that an issue in German zoos or zoos in Europe about euthanasia of animals that are not sick but are surplus. Right. That is a great topic.

And the, these animal rights people, they don’t understand because each animal has a right of living of life and you can’t destroy any life. So this is a, a two very opposite situations. Those on the one side who managed their collections and the animal right People not so far the, the animal welfare people, but the animal Right. People who don’t accept it at all.

Is this something that the zoo directors are concerned with and, and wrestle with?

Of course. Of course they are.

And, and what conclusion, what opinion did the, does the group come to?

They come to the opinion that he has done right Because we always have to, from time to time, kill animals, surplus animals who animals and feed them to the great cats. For instance, lions, tigers in Denmark, Copenhagen recently or two, three years ago. They even publicly of giraffe and, and explained everything about their organs and their Yes, A zoo likeum must compete with other cultural institutions.

Yeah. What is the zoo?

What do you believe is the zoo’s strong point to compete and how does the zoo sell it?

There are many entertainment parks, all kinds of institutions. But the difference is that no one has, are animals and an animal and a zoo does good to concentrate on the animals and not start with attractions like roundabout and, and et cetera. We should concentrate on animals, but make this very good. You have had, when you were director, many curators run and work for you.

What if you were training, what would you include in a training program to make curators excellent?

Curators are responsible for the animals and they don’t interest at all for visitors. A zoo is a place where animals and people meet, but they are so strictly concentrated on the animals and the welfare, on the breeding programs, et cetera, feeding and are just very important. But they, they don’t have any understanding for the needs of the visitors. And they are most, the best time is when there are no visitors at the zoo.

So would you have specific things you would want to train your curators to do or understand?

Yes. And it would be about the people?

Yes, exactly. Exactly. That the zoo is for people and we have to fulfill their expectations. Now you mentioned people coming to the zoo.

What changes have you seen during your years in the zoo regarding the visitor attitude?

I think over the years our mission was understood our mission that zoos stand for conservation of species, conservation of nature. And everybody knows nowadays that zoo are very much involved in conservation projects.

So do you think the visitors have a greater understanding of that today?

Exactly. Now, during your career, what has caused you during your career the most concern and whatever that was, do you see, how do you see the future regarding that concern you had?

So during your time as zoo director, what has concerned you the most?

Well, we had two cases in my time where we had to kill animals for the benefit of the safety of the visitors. They had escaped, one was a chimpanzee and he was very, very upset and aggressive. And so we decided in the end to shut, shut him duck down. And the other was a bear. He had come over the barrier motor mold and then over the visit’s barrier and ran all over the place. And we were very much afraid that he, that he attacked people and then we said we have to better take him out. But at that time, this was in the eighties and we explained this to the media that this was for the safety of the visitors and the part that we cannot risk a life of anybody visiting the zoo. And this was accepted and understood.

Nowadays you have a shit storm. Storm.

No, no. What issues would you, if you could want zoos to address in the future, if you could talk to zoo directors, what would you say they should be addressing in the future?

What issues?

Yeah, mainly you have to talk to the people, I mean to the visitors that they understand how zoo is functioning and so that there’s no opposition that they leave the zoo and say, oh, this is terrible. Or the animals are in small places and they better should be free. And you can reach this by talking to them, I mean by educational displays, et cetera, that animals at the zoo are not prisoners. They have their territory a little bit smaller than the nature, but their territory, which the they defend don’t allow anybody come in and they accept this as their territory and finish.

Do you think, what major directions should zoos be going in for the future?

More heavy education. No heavy conservation. What direction You have to do both. And both is conservation. We have breeding programs, we have release programs, et cetera. We have to tell this to the visitors and we are enthusiastic about that very, from time to time, really safe species and this road should be continued.

Do you think, as you talk about breeding, do you think that private breeders can be partners with zoos?

Yes. They are already in breeding birds for instance, there are many private people who are breeding, holding and breeding endangered species birds. And why not include them in all, all around breeding program organized by the US Association. And this is already the case in, in many cases, for instance the Bali Minor and other, other species.

What would, what do you think is the most difficult concept for a zoo to understand and implement regarding their relationship with conservation?

What’s the most difficult thing for a zoo to understand about their relationship for conservation?

Hmm. I don’t know. I don’t really understand what you mean.

Do you think zoos understand their role in conservation?

I think so. I think so. This has developed in the 1890s and now it is the evangelian of any zoo. There are first task is conservation.

We sell it all everywhere to the people With that, do you think that space, does it continue to be a problem for zoos and aquariums space to keep their Animals space?

Well this is an old question. The main thing is not to have much space. You have to arrange yourself to the space you have in in front of you, you have available. So this leads to a reduction of the number of species. But it takes to a better living for the animals and to a better exception of the visitors, better to have a smaller number of species, but to keep them very well. And so that people don’t think, oh, this is a prison of animals. So an exhibit has to look like a part of the nature at the zoo.

When we saw at Cologne Zoo, some sheep that were grazing and and helping mow the lawn, do you think that animals need to earn their keep?

Oh no, I don’t think so. I mean the whole collection of course earns the money by the interest fee of the people and, but they don’t have to pay.

We had an investigation, not we, but in another zoo there was an investigation by, what is it?

The company, which any case they should find out which animals are most attractive and they counted the time. People stand in front of the elephants in front of the me cats and it’s front of Mara like here. And of course there are animals which are more or less neglected. People pass away others, they stand there enthusiastic. So, and this people thought you have to abolish all these animals which don’t, which are not much looked at. And just concentrate on those animals where the people are really interested, where they spend the time. And this saves a lot of money.

And do you agree or disagree?

I disagree completely.

Why do you disagree?

Because zoo is not a P pure entertainment park. So the P, we want just our ambition to display a large variety of species as large as possible as space allows. And of course we select species if they are endangered somewhere in the world, somewhere in Germany or Europe. And to, to participate in many breeding programs and release programs. Yes. So for the general people, I think we need a broad variety of species. You have traveled many places in the world.

Is there a wild still out there or have the majority of the wild spaces been turned into managed zoos?

That is the case.

If you travel to Africa, this na natural, what do we say?

National parks are spots on the old map and these, they have problems with animals get out of the national parks and want to go to another path, to another national park. And this makes a lot of damages to the people living there. So more or less we have to manage national parks are managed like Jews, it is more severe in India. This is a country with a second large population in the world and their national parks are little spots, spots very little spots. And as we know tigers for instance, they need space, they want to communicate, they look for partners, et cetera. And they need to be moved from one space to the other. So in in India they, the national parks are all zoo like managed, have to be managed like zoos.

How difficult do you think the future for Asian and African elephants in the wild?

So the African elephant, the number of African elephants has gone down to 400,000 that everybody’s upset about and everybody wants to lose something. But nobody speaks anymore about the Asian elephants. These are 40,001 10th of the number in Africa and India for instance, and also Myanmar, Thailand. They have a long tradition of using elephants for work, for religious reasons in the temples, in Paris, et cetera. But in not only in Indian, all the countries, it is not allowed anymore to catch elephants from the wired on the other end. It is amazing that the Indians never bred elephants. Whenever an individual died, they went to the wood and caught a new one. But this tradition will now stop because they never bred.

So, and it is amazing that the zoos in Europe, in America started to breed Asian elephants and build up self-sustaining populations. And there will be the day, one day that we can bring elephants back to India for their very purposes. On the other hand, the Indians also start breeding.

So a good segue in how successful then have zoos, aquariums been in achieving the reintroduction of species back to the, into the wild, how successful have zoos been?

Well this is, if we are honest, a small number of species like Al, which was completely extinct in the wild and the population, self sustaining population in Europe and I think also in America has been built up. And since the eighties or the nineties we started to release animals in the wild in Mongolia, in colognes who were in particular in the Pusha of Hungary. So, and the main thing is this costs a lot of money and we are all sometimes blamed for that. We pay so much money for single species, but don’t do anything for the rest of the habitat. But you have to see that these animals are flagship species. They stand for so many other species of animals and plants in that region and they attract the attention. And so a flagship species helps very much to conserve the whole area. The same is true for the Golden Lion tine.

This is a small monkey which you know, from South America. And this was, I think it was the first real good successful project of building up an self-sustaining population and release. And also this is a flagship species and the population down there now accepts, understands it that this is a flagship she species and it’s the symbol for nature conservation in Brazil.

Meanwhile do, Do you think you are from Europe?

Do you think you can talk about what you believe are the major differences between zoos in North America and those in Europe?

I don’t see any major difference. I’ve traveled much in the US and have seen many zoos and they do, they follow the same policy as in Europe and sometimes they were much ahead to the Europeans. We had to speed up to build up SSPs and EEPs, et cetera.

What do you think has been the greatest, when we talk about visitors, the greatest areas of development in the way a zoo has interpreted their collection to the visitors?

What’s been the greatest area of developing that interpretation for the visitors coming to the zoo?

Well, I think the most important part are the educational, what do we call it?

The labels where you explain, I mean the biology of the animal, but also the status in nature. And if there are breeding programs, release programs, so they take this up. The problem is if you walk through a zoo and want to read all these labels, it is a book who runs through the zoo and wants to read a book. So they just accept, well here and there part, but under the line they leave the zoo and have understood that what we do in conservation programs and conservation, conservation is not just breeding, it is also education because we have to get the people online to, well, to understand and to participate in the conservation efforts.

So when you talk about conservation, what worries you?

But what gives you hope?

Hmm. Well everything can be improved of course, and we can strengthen our efforts, but I’m quite sure that this development will go on and that more and more projects all over the world will be done. For instance, when I left the zoo 20 years ago, I, we had about maybe 10 conservation programs. I mean in this case, I mean programs involved in nature conservation in the field. And now they have, as you have seen yesterday on our, around through the zoo, at least 20 different projects and of all kind of species in all kind of continents. When you walk around the zoo and you see the exhibits, some of which you’ve designed, how did you try and achieve for the visitor that wow factor, what were you looking for in putting together an exhibit that they would say, wow, Peop an exhibit should look like that people forget this is a zoo. They are just emerged in the, in a part of nature at for instance, goers or the elephants, they are in natural like environments and people forget, this is zoo, this was my endeavor.

Do zoos have sister zoo relationships?

Do other countries, do you have, I Mean each zoo has many relations to other zoos in Europe, mostly in Germany and other countries. But sister zoos in the sense of definition, I don’t know.

When you were zoo director, was it important or how important do you think it is for the zoo director?

To make rounds?

Yes. Of the collection?

Yeah, And why I was at, even at my time, I was one of the few zoo directors who insisted in a morning round through the zoo, this was for me the only possibility to, to be in touch with animal keepers to speak every morning about problems of the themselves of the animals. And you can on the spot decide on anything what, what is necessary. So it helped me very much to be really in contract with the basis with the people working at the zoo you had, but nowadays, nowadays zoo s don’t find the time. So they were are have to be reported by the curators, what has happened overnight and so, so on. This makes the whole thing shorter, but also unpersonal.

What do you say when people ask you to justify nature conservation, what do you tell them when they say, why do you use disease nature conservation?

That is a very difficult question.

This planet will move on if there are no elephants who, who needs elephants really?

Who needs gorillas?

The humankind will not getting extinct if we have no go chimpanzees, the big animals, which we are so enthusiastic about it. So maybe it’s a hobby of us and people who like elephants and a few people maybe like elephants and GOs, tigers, et cetera. In your, in your book you say zoos are the most important and active natural conservation centers all over the world.

What do you mean?

I mean that people living in our civilized countries have the chance to see endangered animals and to learn about conservation.

Who ever has the chance to go to Africa, to the different national parks, to India, to North America?

So this is a small number under the line. Most of the people have no other choice than going to the zoo to see a part of nature. You believe the foundations for understanding nature must be laid.

Why?

Because it is not unborn. It is, you have to learn it, you have to pick up somewhere. And the best way is of course the zoo. On the other hand, there are teachers at school who tell the young, the scholars how terrible it is to take animals into prison and they should not go to Azure. This is one problem of of Zeus nowadays.

We, we talked about science, but what do you think is the secret in your opinion of getting people to read educational science?

Sure, there must be an eye catcher that people are really attracted to a label and ask themselves what, why, what is this eye catcher?

I must read it. This is a art of developing this labels.

Do you see that happening more in the many European zoos you’ve gone to?

Yes. You’ve said that zoo education has always been a great concern for you.

Yes. Why?

Well, it is one of the, one part of our efforts to efforts for conservation. It is not just breeding and policing animals. That’s fine. This is a under the line, quite small number, we must be honest about it. But to educate people, to catch people, to convince them of these efforts. This is very important and that can be done best in the zoo nowadays in tv, et cetera. But what the media transport is more or less a v. There are very few really good, good, good. Or how do you call it good films about this, about this story.

You, you talk, can you talk about the phrase you used, the zoo of the future is a showcase for nature. I think I explained this already, that the exhibits should look like a part of the nature and people who look at the, the exhibits believe really this is the nature, this is how the nature looks like.

Do you have any words of wisdom for dealing with the press or words of advice that you would give to a young zoo director?

Well, at my time I made the press work myself. Nowadays they have a staff of people, press people. And I don’t know what kind of people, I think it’s very important to have a personal relation to the press people. I mean there are two large newspapers. There are at least three radio stations, TV stations, and they honor it very much if the zoo director himself explains the tro instead of sending some press man from the zoo because he has too much to work. I always thought press work is so important that I have to do it myself and not without success.

Do you believe that zoos have yet reached the cultural status?

Are they the same cultural status as museums?

No, museums are real culture and are visited by knowing people. And so, and under the line, very few people, a zoo is something for children. You go if you have small children to the zoo or if you grandparents, you come with your uncles. So zoos in the public are more or less entertainment for children as they are viewed that.

But how can then, what is the road for zoos to be more than entertainment for the children?

Sure. That is difficult. We have to go outside to invite people to the zoo and try to get films in the TV on what we really do. For instance, in Germany, some 20 years ago there was a wave of popular documentaries on zoos we have for each of the federal states and TV station. And one after the other started with the, what do you say with the, this kind of documentary. And it started in Leipzig, which presently is the leading zoo in Germany. And then came Frankfurt and it was muni and hug and back in Hamburg. And there were also two series in MTA and Oberg means in North R Australia where we are living. And I thought, this is so silly and I was really glad that nobody had approached me, but all on a sudden this what we call the second TV program in Germany came to us because they, they saw that all on a sudden all these TV stations had the series and they had quotes of 17 or 18% e each day over many years, et cetera.

And I said, okay, I don’t like it, but I insist or I allow you to make this series on cologne. You, if you from time to time speak about conservation of our research programs, of everything what is behind the scene and people don’t know about it. And they agreed and they traveled for this series to Vietnam, to our project, to Africa, to several projects abroad to show what this zoo does for conservation. And this was what I was quite happy about it.

Okay. Now do you have any advice or suggestions for those who want to make a difference in the zoo world? Young people?

Hmm. They have to be brave. They have to think about it to develop their own ideas and brave enough to implement them. In your book you have said it’s an important task of zoos and we’ve talked briefly to contribute to the conservation of endangered species through breeding.

Why?

Well, if you want to release animals, you have to breed them first. You have to get a, a quite sufficient number of specimens to release. But as I said already, conservation is not only breeding program, release program, it is also education of the people.

Is there, in your opinion, a difference between animal welfare and species conservation In general?

I would say there is no difference if we, we have to keep the animals at the zoo at our best knowledge of welfare.

But, well, let me say so in conservation programs, or not in conservation programs, but in the, in the conservation of species in the wired and there are other, what do we say that builds other justifications in the zoo?

Every individual counts in the wired, not the individual counts, but the welfare, I mean of the whole population.

You understand what I mean?

You come from a varied background, you have many interests, medical entomology, scientific research. You’ve dealt with zoos in Afghanistan and Germany teaching elephants.

How are you motivated and why?

What keeps you going?

Well, when I left high school, I didn’t know what to really know what to study. And I decided for biology because this was the random of animals and not so much the plant. I was enthusiastic about it. And then I started the study at the University of one of zoology and I was much disappointed that the animals, which I liked from the zoo, didn’t play any role in the study of the university. Nobody spoke about elephants in grafs, et cetera. And the best was the best part of the what, what what was offered in bond was parasitology or the symbiotic life of different species. This one parasitic. The other one is symbiotic.

So, and I finally ended in a institute of parasitology and worked on Russell flies, told, don’t know in English. And later on I met my rehabilitation 10 years on ies. So flies are the best known animals to me.

If one of the journalists asked me, what is your favorite animal?

I never dared to say it. So, and after finishing my PhD, I was offered a position in Afghanistan as a docent at the University Department of Theology. And with this department was connected a little zoo, Kabul zoo, which I just found it was a very small zoo, only three hectare concentrated on the local animals. But they’re very spectacular. They used to be up to, up to the 19th century lives. They used to be tigers. Up to the mid of the 20th century, there are cheaters sometimes to, to to see there are two ki two species of bears, the Himalayan black bear and the brown bear. There’s B right here.

There are antelope za, which is antelope. Then there spectacle birds also, which I don’t know which I don’t want to to to to name all of them. And when I came back from Afghanistan, I came back to my home university and I was working 10 years as I said, on ies. And when I had finished my rehabilitation, I was without job and I applied on many universities and many zoos. And finally, I don’t know why zoo colon zoo accepted me.

This was, Was it difficult because you had no zoo experience that they accepted you?

Well, my only experience was a small zoo in Kabul, which I did with much effort and and enthusiasm. But this was not real practical work in a big zoo like this.

I don’t know why the, the board of trustees selected me and did not look to my poor, what do you say?

Poor work, poor knowledge about those. But I think they thought they had a, made a good choice and I also thought they made a good choice. On the other hand, my colleagues were very skeptical. There comes some probably who has no knowledge on those or abso practical know knowledge on those. And it took several years to get, I mean settled in the community, but then I was one of the leading forces. We will speak about that later. I think Some zoos, I don’t know about cologne, have feeding programs for animals giraffe feeding.

What is the message you feel this should convey and do you feel it’s relevant?

Well the people want to see animals active doing something and this can be provoked best by feeding. So we have what traditional feeding time for the sea lions and they make some, you know, tricks we used to have and not anymore on elephants. And ah, we have on the baboons we, we didn’t pass the baboons there. We have wonderful feeding procedure. The animal keeper goes into the mode and distributes the food first to the dominant baboons and later on to, to everybody. And this is very spectacular.

At times. When you were director, what would you say was your style of management?

What would you say was your style of how you managed the zoo?

My style?

Well I am an animal man and the animals for me were the most important at the zoo. And of course I set the rest of the day after the round, in the morning at my desk in the office and had to phone these and then so, but the best I liked was the zoo. And as I’ve told you already, I’ve lived on the ground and every evening when the visitors had left the zoo, we made us walk. My wife and me all over the place undisturbed by an any people.

But if I talked to your staff, what would they say your style of management was?

How would they talk about you and you running the zoo?

What would they say your style is?

Huh? I never asked myself. Tonight you will have the chance to ask my successor because he worked already 15 years before at the zoo. He was curator for the birds. Good one and made the competition for the new director.

Would your staff say you were a tough boss or would you say I was a tough boss?

I would say, and the staff probably has different opinions. There are those who, who liked what I did and other status is impossible. Maybe Many zoos seem to say that conservation is just giving money.

Is conservation so big that it’s unreasonable request to ask of zoos, big and small to help in conservation?

Should they all do something?

I think so, yes. And ev, everybody nowadays does.

Do you think zoos and aquariums need to be more involved in animal welfare?

In any case, they should do their best in keeping their animals in the best knowledge of welfare. And this has developed over the years very rapidly. I think You’ve had to deal with government officials.

What is the most effective way to deal with elected officials and municipal officials in order to develop and manage the zoo?

Today I invited the people on the municipal, what do we say, parliament, so into the zoo for special feedings after close, after the zoo had been closed. And then I could tell them everything and they had to listen to me. And I think most of them accepted what I said Is in education, doing any good.

Is the education process doing any good in boosting the image of a zoo among the public in face of anti zoo groups?

Is education helping to make the zoo better even though anti zoo groups are out there?

Of course, yes it does.

Is there a certain way they can do it to answer the message that the anti zoo groups are saying, is education important in in moving that forward?

It’s most important, but it’s also very difficult to get them in the, into the zoo because they’re anti zoo people sometimes are more successful to invite animal welfare people. And I was, I think I was also con I could convince them that welfare is at the best in here. You talked about your past as a researcher.

How important is research in zoos today?

It has been important and it will be important. We have to develop the skills of welfare, of feeding, of all kind of veterinarian problems. It’s mostly important. Unfortunately the people working at the zoo don’t have much time for research. But you have to, to get contacts to university institutes or other institutes to invite you must invite them to help to lose your problems. That’s most important.

And did you invite universities?

Yes, I was a professor and I taught at the universities at the first at bond and then on in at Cologne. And this was a chance to recruit young people in seminars, in guided tours, in lectures, and at least to con convince the academic world or at least the biology students on what do do. And I think I had more than, I supervised more than a hundred diplomas thesis and several number of PhD thesis. Myself and other pfs from the university sent their students to do research work here. We were one of the zoos with had the most related with research institute. That is probably why I myself came from the university director of the zoo.

So in many ways your background in teaching was very invaluable to you as a zoo director?

Yes. – That many other zoo directors did not have?

No, no, no. Usually zoo directors, he comes to the zoo, his curator, and after some time he takes the chance to compete for the directorship. So they are just always worked at the zoo and didn’t care for anything else Now. So I was coming from outside and regarded as a stranger, very skeptical by the zoo community. You had to prove yourself. Yes. We have walked around the zoo and we have talked at sometime about marketing the zoo.

Is there any advice that you as an experienced zoo director would give to a new zoo director about the importance of marketing your zoo?

I can say that my successor understood what I try to do and I think they have improved very much. There’s a lot of advertisement outside in the city and around the city to attract people into the zoo. So he does a very good job on that. So I, I’m not able to do, to give him more so advices.

Would you say that marketing today is more important than when you started?

I think so because the variety of offers for entertainment in this city has grown very much. And so we have to compete with all of them. But our special attraction are the enemies.

What I said before You talked about zoo visitors, how do you think a zoo can improve the connection with kids and teenagers to heighten their awareness about the natural world?

That group of not children but not adults somewhere they Were Teenagers. I mean this zoo was the first one to have a zoo school at the zoo Education department. And of course also classes in this size. I mean age si come to the zoo so that you can tell them we have a youth club also where the younger people come and do something in here, some ful.

Has that been successful? Hmm?

Has it been successful? Yes. Yes.

When families come with their children, what do you want them to feel about the zoo when they leave?

What they should have learned that the zoo is a good place for animals and the zoo is a place which does help conservation of nature in the world.

And if you could give advice, what issues would you like to see the international zoo community addressing now?

Hmm. Well I really don’t know to what to say. I have many years not attended a Vassar conference. This is an international association of those and I don’t really know what they discussed there and what are their problems.

Well, but what advice would you give them?

Well, they should develop what we have started all this policy on conservation, education, research, et cetera. Well, in Europe you personally got zoos to cooperate in animal breeding programs.

How did you manage to do that?

What were the obstacles you faced?

Well, when I came into the zoo world, the Americans just had founded SSP 82 and they presented this program at the ZA at that time called IUDG. And of course we wanted to do this in the same way. But the problem is mo at that time there was no European Zoo Association. Every country had National Zoo Association, French France, even two. So, so it was very difficult to bring the whole European community on one table. And after, after several years at the site of the conferences in of the mother conferences, Europeans sat together and discussed how to proceed Cetera. What nothing happened, at least there were three Zura ISTs from Amsterdam, Antwerp, and Rotterdam. They invited all ZA members of Europe for conference on establishing something like SSP.

And much to my astonishment, I was the only German. This was very embarrassing I found. So I took the initiative and in the same year invited all German, not only all German again, all European BARZA members and all German Jew directors in a conference in here in Cologne. And about 25 from nine different 25 Jews from nine different countries showed up. I had an accident recently at that time with a Peterman and I just was released from the clinics and just welcomed the whole society. And the session itself was led by Wilbert au. He was a director of, no not Berg Stu card do, and he, well first of all, Christian Schmidt was prepared to present a list of potential. ASPs Wilbert was the one who proposed that we take a similar abbreviation, EEP instead of S-S-P-E-E-P means European Endangered Breeding program.

So this was the start, November 85 after some time. So, and this was made without any association and we, in the beginning we avoided to found an association because when we did this, we were, we excluded automatically all Zeus beyond the iron curl. And so we had them in, we wanted to have all animals of species in Europe in the breeding program. So we avoided all these organizational structures. But in the European community, in the western Europe, Europe, there was an anti zoo movement and a zoo Czech in the organization, which still exists. And they had the lobby in Brussels. And the Antwerp colleague Forman, he came up with the idea to establish an European Zoo association in the, of the co community. A KAZA means European Community Association of Zoos.

And, but this was mainly for the purpose of defending ourselves at the European Parliament and the European Commission. After the turn, what, what we say when the Berlin War was stumbled and GNO came from the Soviet Union and the Soviet block almost collapsed in a few, in a very short time. Then we, I proposed to enlarge our e kaza to a pan-European association called za. This trust means European Association of Susan Qua. This was done in 1992 and the organization took over the EEP programs. We established a office for the EEP, not only for the eep, for the Eza at Amsterdam Zoo, and B, who later was director in UP oil up oil. And in the Gaia Park, he was the first director of this office.

Yeah, what, what can I say else?

This was the beginning of the EEPs and the organization of course evolved. So we had a committee on breeding on the eps. We had committee on veterinarian problems on research later on, on helping substandard zoo in Eastern Europe and of course in committee on on conservation. So now this is the largest zoo association in the world with, I don’t know, three, four, a hundred and fifty members and in all states of Europe. And we meet each year and the meetings are bigger and bigger from year to year. There are now thousands of people coming, all the curators who are responsible for eps, et cetera and so on. So I think this was a great move and great success. And I was the chairman of this group for many years, I think four years Now.

If you could go back in time, what, if anything, would you have done differently?

Hmm. Hardly to say because everything I did was so su successful that I had no reason to, I mean to step back or to think different ways. So if it was so successful, you must have been a good zoo director. Thank you very much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I engaged myself very much in the Corporation of Zoos, mainly in asa and I was also president of Vasa.

Are there any programs or exhibits you would’ve done during your tenure as zoo director that just didn’t happen?

Well, the one I wanted to do in the end was the Hippo Aquarium, which my successor was successful with.

And what would you say during your time was your proudest accomplishment?

Elephant 2005 opened, we opened the exhibit You had in in let’s follow in doing the elephant building. You had many difficulties to overcome in putting it together.

Yes. Can you talk about its evolution from your beginning idea about the exhibition of elephants and trying to now make it a reality and the difficulty in picking a design and all the things that you as director had to go through to bring it to completion?

To begin with planning, designing the exhibit we had, we had to make a pan european com competition and there we had 1500 proposals of people who just knew were is the end and was the head of the elephant, no idea of Jews. They just applied. And in the end we decided, we didn’t know. Go ahead. Yes, we didn’t know who were the applicants, but in the end it turned out that it was somebody from Cologne. So it was a cologne architectural company who had the, to my ideas, the best proposal. And he, they built it in, in a, a fixed time at a fixed financial frame. So everything was okay, but we had to start at zero with the elephants because we had only one very old one in the old house. And this could not be the nucleus for a new herd of elephants.

The first four elephants we got came from Emmen, which is a small city with a wonderful large zoo. And this was a family group, two males and two offsprings. This were the force. And they came from a zoo which kept the elephants hands off or ProTrac contact. And so we had to follow because you cannot train start training these elephants to be hands on. So we looked further to get to get other elephants. We got two from Myanmar. I had some relations to Myanmar and we got four more from Thailand.

But this was done very secretly, very smoothly. The public didn’t know about it. All of a sudden these animals were here and they came, the Thailand animals came with their, what do you say, keepers to present us these elephants. And they had a certain ceremony to say goodbye to their elephants. And one year later after opening, the first elephant was born in here, the first born elephant in the history of the colon zoo since 80 60. And this was an uproar and the population that everybody came, everybody was enthusiastic about it. And since then, and we didn’t interfere at all because there were enough female elephants who had experience in births of young elephants. So we didn’t interfere at all.

It helped at oil, it happened at night and we just observed it silently from the balcony to the birth of the elephant. This was wonderful. Since then, I think 10 or 12, I forgot the number elephants have born here. So this was the most success, successful marine program for me And for the zoo. Yes, You have said. And and to to to, to develop the, what do you say the task be invited or I invited the best specialist on, expert on Asian elephant in Germany. Fred Cook was his name. He did nothing else. He always worked in India, in Srilanka, in Myanmar, in Thailand, on Asian elephants. And so he gave his input, which was very helpful I thought, because somebody, there was nobody who knew elephants in the wild better than we.

You have said that you, that the Bronx Zoo, in your opinion, defined what zoos are about.

Can you tell me about what you meant?

Well defined as a tiny Hagar, but he took up the, what you say, the motto of the New York Psychological Society, which was research, ad education and conservation. So in so far I adopted it also for myself. And I must say from all American zoos, I like most New York Bronx Because of their stance on conservation. Yes. And also the exhibits which build Conway designed very much.

Are there other zoos in the world that you particularly admire and why?

And who are they?

Well, this is all Orlando, of course the Disney world. Disney, what is called the animal kingdom. I was very much impressed to see the whole thing. And when it had opened, we traveled in the same year over Sylvester to Orlando and began the new year and of course visited the animal kingdom.

Are there any others around the world that you Like Particularly?

Yeah, single brewer. The night safari, one of my favorites, colognes was also very visible. I mean birth visiting.

And when people ask you the question, do we still need zoos?

What do you say to them?

Yes, more than ever. Why?

So that everybody in the world has the possibility to go to zoo to for, there’s this particular important for countries in let’s say Africa, who, how many people living in Africa have ever been to a national park?

They cannot afford it. There are school programs in Kenya, for instance, but the rest of the population, these national parks are visited by Europeans Americans, Japanese, Chinese nowadays, but not by the Africans because they cannot afford it. On the other hand, I must say there are very few zoos in Africa, both visiting, I mean regardless from South Africa, of course, which is made by the white people long time ago. Otherwise, I must say I remember very, very terrible zoos with old fashioned cages. And the, the holding, I mean holding of the animals was suboptimal, was no good. So very good zoos are missing on the continent. But on the other end, India, they have such a great number of new modern zoos, which is amazing.

China, the Emirates, have you been recently to the Emirate Emirates?

There are so large Jews, they have the money, you know, they hire the knowledge and they build up fantastic institutions. You talk about zoos undergoing a dramatic development.

What did you mean when you said that?

Well, zoos are built nowadays in all these countries when we had never expected it. And they do it in a very good way. They’d hire experts from abroad to build up it, to bring the mission to their tools. And they do their really very best. I I, I think they some, meanwhile most of the zoos at the Emirates are member of the European Zoo Association.

How do you feel that these zoos and others are contributing to the preservation of the planet’s biodiversity?

The good zoos follow our philosophy. And vis are many Talking about zoom management.

Have you made any observations?

’cause you’ve dealt with many directors about today’s zoo directors and, and what their style is in running their zoos and their job responsibilities?

Sure, I think I contract it really. I think my successor does a good job. And that’s also in, as I said already, the leading zoo in Germany is presently.

Who would you, can you help us out?

Who is Jimick and his importance in your opinion?

Well, he was the first zoo director of Frankfurt too, and did a good job at the zoo. But his main merit was the engagement in Africa, in Tanzania, in the Sang Haiti. And he propagated the conservation in general so much that nowadays everybody in Germany combines it with his name. This is main, his main merit at the zoo. He was, well, he did his best.

And if he had time enough beside all his conservation in Africa, Would you say that he was a leading zoo director in showing the importance of field and helping?

Yes, There are other important people.

Do you believe that the animal keepers today, the curators that were under your direction and even directors are aware and understand the knowledge of HeNe ker?

And do you think it’s important?

I think Heger is still very well known in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, of course, he had been the director of three zoos, one after the other burned Basel village. And he laid the foundation of the modern scientific led zoo in his books. He wrote the first one in 42. The second one was published I think in 65. And I read it and I was so engaged and enthusiastic about this book that I always wanted to work in the zoo. And that book would be man and animal Yes. In the zoo. Right. And it was an important volume to you. Yes. And I think for more many zoo people at that time.

And now in this time, do you think that zoo people, whether they be directors or curators, understand these principles and know who this person is and understand?

Yes, of course. Yes. Yes. I think in Germany, this is still the fundamental book on zoo biology. Can you talk about, Heger did a quote which you quote in your book about and what it means to you. It says, zoos are by no means only zoological matters, but cultural in the broadest sense, the animal and indeed a wild animal that is so endangered in our time, plays a much greater role in our culture, history, art and literature than most people realize. Exactly. And if We wanted to eliminate them, it would be a sad day. And how much desolate would be if they were taken away.

What did that mean to you and why do you quote it in your book?

Well, this citation I received from Kar, and he was the director of Zu and he didn’t show up very much in international pro conferences because he didn’t speak English, but German fluently and Russian et cetera. So we were very good friends. And this was 85 when we had our anniversary, he sent me this citation and I found it so good that I always used it in many cases, including in my book, because I think he is right. You have in your book called Zoos Emergency Exits to Nature.

What do you mean?

I stole it from Haine Hegar. This was one of his, i I mean mottos. And of course it is an emergency because the wild, the wild nature is shrinking everywhere day. So at last there are left zoos. See it is a emergency exit, of course, emergency exit because some species at least can survive here in a longer time, maybe forever. You also have said a zoo does not differ from any other company. It must constantly invest in development.

Exactly. What do you mean?

I mean, imagine a zoo from the sixties. This zoo was terrible looking. There were one cage after the other and people don’t like to see that anymore. So you have to develop in the, I mean, you have to invest in the development, otherwise you cannot compete and cannot compete with other zoos and, and cannot hold your visitors. That is what I mean. And of course people sometimes blame us that the entrance fees is risen every year, but on the other hand, they accept it because this u has developed over the past decades in such a way that it is that you will not recognize it if you have seen it in the sixties, it was old fashioned and travel, How important, you mentioned the community.

How important is the community support and kazoo survive without it?

Now? Of course not. Zoo is for the people and if the people don’t like it anymore, if they support it, they do not support it anymore. You can close it. We had talked about the elephants.

In your professional opinion, what is your view regarding zoo’s, maintaining elephants and how it should be done correctly?

Are you the highest, is colon the highest example of how it should be done correctly By one of the zoos?

Who does it correctly?

There are more and more zoos nowadays. All the zoos have changed to the method of protect contact. So we were, but we were the first in Germany, we, this was still, it is the largest exhibit in Germany. So is is, if I understand protected contact is now the most normal or not Yet? Yes, It is. Yes it is. Meanwhile, Okay.

In your long career, what is one of the most important piece of pieces of advice that you received that has stayed with you throughout your career?

Hmm. I don’t remember what advice me and what advised me. Well when you were coming up as this new zoo director Yeah.

Who were your, who developed as your mentors?

Hen I who Were you asking advice from Haga. I knew him personally. Christian Schmidt had arranged a, what do we say, a celebration and a colloquial, unless the celebration of Hagar’s birthday. And I was very honored, felt very honored as a such a new zoo director, new in the community. Only few years that I was invited to speak and the others were jaw ripe.

Now who is it?

The man from Atlanta. The man from Atlanta. Terry Maple. Terry Maple. He was the one who introduced the term zoo biology into English, into the, I mean English speaking countries. And he also, as you know, established in a a, a journal called Zoo Biology, which still exists. And there was at last one Prima primatologist working at that time at the University of Jewish. His name was, I think Dean Martin, something like that. So did Hane Heger give you any advice By his, his books and publications, but he, I was also very proud that he, after the colloquium wrote me, thanked me and said, there’s finally somebody who has understood what I meant.

And this was, I was honored very much by this word.

Would you today recommend the zoo, aquarium field to a young person who had sincere interest in wildlife and conservation?

And why would you recommend it if you would?

Yeah, it is very difficult to advise somebody to, to take the zoo career because there are very, very few zoos in Germany. And of course there are all, some, quite a number of curators, but only one director. And if you want to be zoo director, you must be lucky as I also was very lucky. So I think I know many people who directed to the job of the Z director and failed. So it’s very difficult. But on the other hand, there are people who say from, I have one example, the director of Dublin Zoo now, he was brought up here and he, he was my student also a PhD. He did his PhD on, on, on, on lemurs in Marasca. Then he changed to Bristol research officer, and finally he ended up as a director of Dublin Zoo.

So this was, this was a young man who consequently followed up his idea and his direction and he was successful. But this is very rare. Look at me. It took me also 42 years to, to end up in the zoo. First I had to struggle with IES and Afghanistan, et cetera. One might say that was a good background for you. Yes, of course. I’m sure. Yeah. And if people come to you, you said many students you, you’ve worked with and education is strong.

What do you tell person, a young person in college who has a sincere interest in a zoo career to experience study degree?

What do you tell them?

Well, you should of course study biology, zoology, but you should be aware that this aim zoo director is not very possible. So they should always have something in the hand doing as, as what, whatever. As a teacher at school, as a researcher in the university. So whenever there’s a chance they can apply or same way how, how I did it.

You indicated that there are not very many good zoos in Africa, in your opinion, but what do you think a zoo or aquarium can do, can affordably do to help upgrade in developing countries their zoos?

After the turn, the politic political turn in Europe, we all on a sudden had zoos in the eastern part of Europe, in Romania, in Bulgaria, et cetera, Serbia, which were substandard. And we helped them to raise the standards. We had a committee for technical advices, et cetera. And I also was once on a committee and visited the zoo of Belgard, which was suboptimal zoo. They did their best with their possibilities, but there were a lot of old fashioned cages, which nobody wants to see anymore. And we had them to, I mean we advised them to change this. We had talked about the person, the director leading the zoo.

In your opinion, is it better to have a zoo person who understands animals or a business person who understands business for running and being the head of the zoo?

Well, I of course believe the zoologist as the, a better man on the peak of this organization. Nowadays, many zoos have two directors, one animal director, one business director that’s even here. The case since I retired, it’s not bad, but I prefer the first version.

But why would you prefer the first person? The zoo?

Because I want to have everything in my hands. They have to be good people under me for the economy and, and, and et cetera. What they have to report to me. Understood. Maybe a bit, a little bit old fashioned, but I am old Now.

When you talked about reporting to you, your professional opinion on how zoos, we’ve touched upon it, but how zoos should be dealing with surplus animals?

Well, I don’t have any problems to kill hoofstock and to feed it to other, I mean predators. There are species where you can’t do this. These are primates, for instance, great hips at particular. You cannot kill a great ape and feed it through the lion. So you have to control the birth rate. This is nowadays quite easy by hormonal pills, anti baby pills, even with the hippo muscles is such a thing, which they get every day.

Anti pill. You don’t have that in us?

Not that I’m aware of Really? No. I wonder now, in the baboons, there were the, the population was expanding. Expanding. There were 120 baboons on that hall rock. And then we started to ize the males, the dominant males. So there’s no change in their habits. I mean in their Yeah, habits and, but you don’t have any surplus, I mean any births anymore until younger males have brought up are fertile. And after some time you have again, births in the population. But help, this method helped us to reduce the number of baboons to, I don’t know, maybe 80 or so from 120.

So this is a method which is also adopted by, accepted by the people. You always have to find methods which the visitors accept. If you do something they don’t accept like the case in Nurnberg, but which are mentioned then you get cheat songs. This is impossible here. So, but you can do, a problem will be the elephants. The population of elephants in European Jews is growing and growing and the number of of zoo participating in this project are not going. So one day we will be forced either to, to separate the bulls. This is possible because their social structure or we give them back to India for the temples, for whatever.

And in conservation, conservation breeding is one thing. Is that the most important relative to other conservate conservation activities, which might be field research re-introduction.

So where does conservation, breeding and zoos line up with these other things?

Is it the most important or equal or how does it line up?

Well, if you plan a release project, then this breeding programs are most important. And I think all of our field projects are combined with breeding program because there is a flagship species, which were fur. I mean near or far further future we want to release. We had talked about jimick and hegar.

Do we need, or do we have at this time any charismatic heroes to help shift public opinion for conservation?

Are there, is there anybody out there?

Well, not of that format. Like in the US Milk Conway was for me, that guy who was dominating the community and who brought the it forward, but he passed away. And I don’t know if there somebody else came up to represent him.

Would you say David Attenborough is one of those people?

Certainly in England or in Red Britain. We know him from the tv and I like him very much. I mean the way he presents the topics, but of course he’s no two man. But it’s not necessary to promote our mission. When zoo spends multimillion dollars on a gorilla exhibit Sure.

Or an elephant exhibit or a tiger exhibit, and critics say, why don’t you spend the money to help the animals in the wild?

What do you say?

Well, the, to improve the exhibit to build a new exhibit is just to make the people convinced that this is a part of nature. Otherwise it will not accept at all that animals are kept at you. So you have to invest this money first and it pays back later if you are successful in your conservation efforts.

Are you concerned about zoos and aquariums staying viable and pertinent in the next 25 years?

What direction would you think would help them stay relevant?

Well continue the conservation line. This is the main purpose of zoos nowadays.

What are your thoughts about people with money who own private zoos and do you believe those that private zoos will survive the length of time that municipal zoos have?

I’m thinking of White Oak Conservation Center and others that are owned privately who have money. And example you mentioned is the Middle East, where private owners have spent lots of money. Yeah. And bought talent. Yeah. To run a zoo In Germany. We have Hagenbeck in Hamburg, which is still family owned and run, run by the family and with success. And we have a big bird park, which is also privately owned. And there are of course, many other examples in other countries. For instance, the Emmen Zoo is a privately run zoo in France.

There are several of them in England. Almost all the zoos are privately owned. Only I think London, which is owned by a society and not by the city in the way, in that way. And they do all of them, not all of them, but most of them do a good job. Do you believe they’ll survive the long period of time, At least – That that Colon Zoo has, or Berlin Zoo has At least the next 25, 50 years. You’ve been in the profession a long time.

So what can you, do you think that you may know about the profession that you’ve been in, that you’ve given many years of your life?

What do you know about that profession that you’ve given so much of your life to What’s, what’s, what do you think about when you think about all the time you’ve spent as zoo director Within This zoo field?

I can say that I liked it very much, that I was very happy that they selected me as a zoo director and I did my best to do the job. And this was very satisfying.

And how would you like to be remembered your legacy?

How would you like to be Remembered?

My legacy is Peterman the chimpanzee, as you know. And well, I would prefer that people think of me as a good zoo director.