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Well, I got my master’s degree. And then you took the job. Read More

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Okay, so this was your, you were hired as a keeper, as a scientist?… Read More

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Now that was in 1963, approximately?… Read More

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Yeah, yeah. Read More

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And you had graduated already?… Read More

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And so I went to see Thomas, Warren Thomas, and I said, “Do you know any zoo jobs that are available anywhere?” And he, some thing had went off in his head and he said, “Well, what about here?” I hadn’t really thought of that, I really didn’t. And I… Read More

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And I said, “Hey, that’s a raise, you know?… Read More

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Good, I’ll take it,” and so I did. Read More

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When did you start to now think about the zoo field, working with animals, based on this experience?… Read More

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I, the psychology department at the University of Oklahoma was dominated by clinical psychologists, not experimental psychologists like I was, and my major professor was. So they, I don’t wanna insult anybody, but they, I will. (laughing) They were, the people who were doing that, the CPs, the clinical psychologists,… Read More

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And I remember that I went to see Warren Thomas, and I said to him, ’cause I just had that feeling, you know, it would be great to work in the zoo. That’s when it started really. And I had the feeling and it just, as luck in a way,… Read More

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Well, it confirmed to me that they indeed were extremely intelligent animals. And one of the things that also, that it really showed me, that animals, apes in particular, because they’re so high up on the phylogenetic scale, are individuals. They’re not like cans of peas on a shelf that… Read More

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We all know that, so why do we have such a hard time?… Read More

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But we do have a hard time with great apes that way, and I don’t think that, it’s silly, it’s very silly to think of, “Well, chimps are the smartest.” Well chimps are smart, but I know an orang that’s a hell smarter than any chimp I ever knew. And… Read More

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There wasn’t, you know, I’m one of the few psychologists that’s ever worked with great apes and not, never worked with a rat, a white rat. And there are a lot, you know, tons of psychological experiments have been done on white rats. We probably know more about white rats… Read More

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When did things then change?… Read More

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Well first of all, when you did the research, what did this research confirm to you about your subjects?… Read More

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I mean you know, they are after all very intelligent animals and they did that extremely well. Now you said you were on a different track educationally, up- Yeah, yeah, yes that’s right. Read More

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I mean I wasn’t on, it was like a classroom track, you know?… Read More

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What is the word, and what does it really mean?… Read More