Sure, I mean, Bill Woodin at Arizona Sonora from day one said, “Go do it, try it.” Chuck Bieler had just wound up as director at San Diego and was feeling his way through. And Bill of course, would always be willing to pontificate to anybody at the time. And, but I sure listened, like everybody. George took me under his wing because we knew each other a little bit from Chicago and I had wound up being more of a herber at the time and of course he was into his frogs. And so, and Merv Larson, when Bill Woodin left the museum and Merv stepped up, Merv was an incredible exhibits designer, and Merv and I would talk about exhibits and lay out exhibits and design exhibits just for the fun of it for his facility and stuff that never even got built, but we would sit around all night long and design crazy exhibit ideas. So, there were people like that.
