Actually born in February the 20th, 1938, which makes me kind of one of the old gray backs or whatever. And in Tucson, Arizona, I was born and raised in Tucson, Arizona in the desert, then foothills outside of Tucson. Of course, now that’s all part of the city, but you know, when I was there, we were five miles from the city limits and, and which I think, you know, was, was there a great place to grow up. And then when I was about 13, we moved to Oklahoma. My dad transferred into Oklahoma, but because he was Air Force civil service and, but Tucson was a, was a good place to grow up because, you know, people, don’t nothing about, you know, the fact that a kid would, you know, or a couple of kids would take their bikes and head out into the desert, then come back in time for supper. And that kinda was my, you know, early fascination with animals and that I collected everything I could get my hands on and including some things I shouldn’t have, probably, in retrospect, like Gila monsters and stuff. And, and, you know, so that was my first where I really kind of developed an interest in, in mostly in herpetology in those early days. And, and then, you know, we spent a little, a little time in outside of Portland, Oregon up on the Warrington river, or my dad was in the Navy and stationed at the Portland Naval base, which is actually where I saw my first quote unquote, exotic animal other than native North American stuff at a little place called Seaside, Oregon.