He had no animal experience whatsoever, but he was great at PR and a good manager. And he relied on Charlie Hoessle, who at that point had become general curator, was no longer just curator of reptiles, was general curator, and really has Charlie to run the animal portion of the zoo. He had somebody else who did finance and so on. So he was the director, but relied on the rest of us, and myself for veterinary and research aspects of the zoo.