And so we applied to the Small Grants Administration, and they, as luck would have it, the guy who was the head of the psychology division was Harry Harlow. And Harry Harlow was the man who first developed the surrogate mothers, and that kind of an experiment. And of course he was, you know, very famous and he, there really had nobody been, there were very few people had ever worked with orangs. And so he, not only did he approve our grant proposal, but he also gave us more money to come and see him. And so we did, we went to see Harry Harlow and his, and it was a very, you know, a very interesting time we had discussing just things with him. He was very supportive of us and he was concerned that, or he said orangutans are a big, to him were a big conundrum, you know, that nobody knew any, very little about them. And people thought they were really dumb, but he didn’t think they were. And so we got, we worked on that project for a number of years.
